The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here • Hacker News Board

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#51

Post by macNchz » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 10:51 PM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #6

A HN contest: Provide an elevator pitch, to completely non-technical end-users, that will make them aware of this issue and persuade them that it is important to them. Vote up the best ones. [EDIT: The goal is to persuade them about its dangers, not sell them something based on it] That elevator pitch is key. I have extensive knowledge about this issue but have a hard time coming up with it; I need to be prepared. Ch…

You've spent years saving up to finally buy a home. You're having a baby in a few months, and you really need the space. You have the down payment ready, your credit is great, you've ticked all the boxes on the application, but you're turned down for the loan. Why?

Maybe you walk home through a bad neighborhood. Maybe you sometimes grab a beer at a bit of a divey bar near your office. Maybe you've visited an old friend who's been in some trouble recently. Whatever the case may be, your face has been in a photo with some questionable folks, whether it's a security camera or a stranger's Facebook photo. So the bank's computers noticed, and flagged you as a risk. People who hang around questionable people aren't very good at repaying their loans.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#52

Post by 15155 » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 10:53 PM UTC

ksenzee wrote: post #35

cantrevealname wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be the killer app for Google Glass. Not just for your situation, but for salesmen, customer service reps, security guards, politicians, or anyone who needs to recognize lots of people, recall names, and bring up an instant profile about the person standing in front of them. (Granted, even this application has serious overtones of societal surveillance.) EDIT: Anyone care to speculate on why Google Glass do…

Google Glass bans facial recognition apps[0]. I've tweeted them about getting an exception for assistive tech but I've never pursued it any further[1]. [0] https://developers.google.com/glass/policies?hl=en [1] https://twitter.com/googleglass/status/463838878143492096

A great example of "you don't own your hardware," or "you own your hardware with a hundred strings attached (probably to the software)"

RMS called this one.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#53

Post by cvwright » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 10:56 PM UTC

I agree with the general idea put forth by the article. This is an important issue, and the future could bring a lot of bad things if we (as a society) are not careful.

Schneier makes it sound pretty scary. For a general audience, this is probably good. It takes a lot to make your average Joe start paying attention to something new.

But on a technical level, I can't help wondering, how realistic is the scenario he describes? Or, maybe the better question is, how immediate is the threat of universal face recognition? If we know what time horizon we're working with, maybe we can be better prepared.

I think Schneier makes some substantial logical leaps in the article that make it sound like automatic, ubiquitous facial recognition is a more urgent issue than it really is.

For example, he goes from this

> Today in the US there's a massive but invisible industry that records the movements of cars around the country. Cameras mounted on cars and tow trucks capture license places along with date/time/location information ...

to this

> This could easily happen with face recognition.

with no supporting evidence for how this feat of engineering will be accomplished. Recognizing letters and numbers on a license plate is one thing. Recognizing faces at random angles with random occlusions, hats, eyeglasses, makeup, etc., is quite another thing.

I found a couple of papers from CMU and UCF a couple of years ago where they look at the problem of recognizing people in photos at "web scale" [1]. The recall/precision rates of the algorithms they tested are pretty decent, but they're still pretty far from the dystopian future described in the article.

[1] http://enriquegortiz.com/wordpress/enriquegortiz/research/fa...

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#54

Post by scrollaway » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 11:03 PM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #6

A HN contest: Provide an elevator pitch, to completely non-technical end-users, that will make them aware of this issue and persuade them that it is important to them. Vote up the best ones. [EDIT: The goal is to persuade them about its dangers, not sell them something based on it] That elevator pitch is key. I have extensive knowledge about this issue but have a hard time coming up with it; I need to be prepared. Ch…

Leaflet:

"Congratulations! You have been selected for our beta testing program.

Based on data we collected on you when you were browsing the internet, we found that you [insert controversial subject, political statement, political affiliation]. We matched this data to you using facial recognition.

If this is not correct, please write to us at [website], we are always looking to improve our algorithms.

[website prominently displayed]"

The controversial characteristics can be obtained by hot reading of some sort or by simply sending party affiliation leaflets in an area where a specific party makes sense. No data actually has to be gathered.

Website reveals the trick and what you, the user, can do about it.

Should piss some people off.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#55

Post by newman314 » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 11:08 PM UTC

macNchz wrote: post #51

hackuser wrote: post #6

A HN contest: Provide an elevator pitch, to completely non-technical end-users, that will make them aware of this issue and persuade them that it is important to them. Vote up the best ones. [EDIT: The goal is to persuade them about its dangers, not sell them something based on it] That elevator pitch is key. I have extensive knowledge about this issue but have a hard time coming up with it; I need to be prepared. Ch…

You've spent years saving up to finally buy a home. You're having a baby in a few months, and you really need the space. You have the down payment ready, your credit is great, you've ticked all the boxes on the application, but you're turned down for the loan. Why? Maybe you walk home through a bad neighborhood. Maybe you sometimes grab a beer at a bit of a divey bar near your office. Maybe you've visited an old frie…

Decent example.

I generalized this as "You have something you really want (everyone has different goals). Right when you think you are about to achieve your goal, it is taken away (because of something stupid you did in the past; everyone has done something stupid at one point). This is why unchecked data collection is bad"

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#56

Post by mmanfrin » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 11:09 PM UTC

pkinsky wrote: post #41

hackuser wrote: post #6

A HN contest: Provide an elevator pitch, to completely non-technical end-users, that will make them aware of this issue and persuade them that it is important to them. Vote up the best ones. [EDIT: The goal is to persuade them about its dangers, not sell them something based on it] That elevator pitch is key. I have extensive knowledge about this issue but have a hard time coming up with it; I need to be prepared. Ch…

Automatic social network shortest-path finding: point your phone at someone and find out if you're friends-of-friends, if you went to the same school, worked at the same company once, etc.

I hate to say this, but: I think this would be very cool. See someone interesting at the bar? Scan and check to find a convenient ice breaker. "Oh! We both went to the same summer camp as kids!"

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#57

Post by croddin » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 11:17 PM UTC

on_ wrote: post #31

There was a great discussion I wont be able to find about this recently on HN after an article about a zebra/leopard patterned couch. Thwarting an image id algorithim is not difficult and the researcher came on and spoke about the problems in the space similar to this xkcd[0] comic. It is a super complex problem to solve. How far away are we? It is like the turing test, everytime someone gets close the term is redefi…

Here is the discussion for "Suddenly, a leopard print sofa appears": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9749660

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#58

Post by marincounty » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 11:20 PM UTC

iamcurious wrote: post #4

I no longer know what to do about this problem. I'm convinced surveillance is here to stay and that making it illegal will only serve to hide the microphones. I'm still extremely grateful for those who fight for privacy, is just that I don't see how we can win. Not knowing how to treat the cause, I'm at least trying to treat the symptoms. We might not be able to stop them from seeing our secrets, but we might very we…

I'll let the NSA surveillance me because I don't have the power to stop it on my own.

I will not let a corporation/individual do the same if I can spot the devises they use, or the hear they are surveilling me.

The small changes I made are: I don't shop at Home Depot as much as I used to. I walk out of any store that has too many cameras. I don't shop at stores that a require membership picture. I never had a big presence on the Internet, so I didn't need to delete to many real name/identifiable ip accounts.

I think their are small ways we can fight. The problem I see is most people think, "I'm not doing anything wrong, I really don't care."--with the exception of HN members.

I have actually looked into ways to defeat facial recognition, but everything I looked into might bring more attention to myself than doing nothing. I do understand the big hoodie though. To be honest, I've never liked my picture taken. As a Photographer, I don't take people's pictures like I used to; it just rude, and shows poor manners these days. (I did look into a hat with IR lights on the brim. It seems to work now, but looks like new cameras will be able to defeate the lights, and there's always the establishment that says no to hats?)

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#59

Post by pasbesoin » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 11:20 PM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #6

A HN contest: Provide an elevator pitch, to completely non-technical end-users, that will make them aware of this issue and persuade them that it is important to them. Vote up the best ones. [EDIT: The goal is to persuade them about its dangers, not sell them something based on it] That elevator pitch is key. I have extensive knowledge about this issue but have a hard time coming up with it; I need to be prepared. Ch…

Your friend / family member is down on their luck. Or, you help "those less fortunate."

You are tagged/associated with them.

Now, you're down on your luck.

P.S. Because, proprietary algorithm.

Re: The Era of Automatic Facial Recognition and Surveillance Is Here

#60

Post by analyst74 » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 11:23 PM UTC

macNchz wrote: post #51

hackuser wrote: post #6

A HN contest: Provide an elevator pitch, to completely non-technical end-users, that will make them aware of this issue and persuade them that it is important to them. Vote up the best ones. [EDIT: The goal is to persuade them about its dangers, not sell them something based on it] That elevator pitch is key. I have extensive knowledge about this issue but have a hard time coming up with it; I need to be prepared. Ch…

You've spent years saving up to finally buy a home. You're having a baby in a few months, and you really need the space. You have the down payment ready, your credit is great, you've ticked all the boxes on the application, but you're turned down for the loan. Why? Maybe you walk home through a bad neighborhood. Maybe you sometimes grab a beer at a bit of a divey bar near your office. Maybe you've visited an old frie…

But doesn't this cut both ways? If you don't hang around questionable people, you'd qualify for better rate for loans. Or if your credit score is not very high, but the fact you don't hang around questionable people brings your credit file up a notch and make you qualify.