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Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

nytimes.com

71–80 of 87 posts

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've no direct experience of this, but this is my take as well. Can anyone explain why two people doing 50 hour weeks at half the salary wouldn't be better for everyone (the employees, their colleagues, the firms that employ them, their clients, society)?

I think it would be better for most people but coordination cost doesn't grow linearly. So if part of the job imply coordination or communication you will need more than doubling to have the same output.

Very much this. Also: knowledge production isn't a linear function of time.

"If it takes one mathematician 12 months of work to prove a theorem, how long would it take 12 mathematicians?" ... probably 13 months :p

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#72
post #44

I have a friend who is a Market Maker on Wall St. He's very successful makes a lot of money, works very long, but he has a very low self esteem. He tells me "I don't know how to actually do anything of any use in the world." I don't really understand him but I think he ends up feeling like his life is worthless. At the end of the day he could be as rich as Midas but he hasn't figured out what life is worth even to hi…

The funny thing is, when it boils down to it, many jobs in our society are superfluous... We survived without technology, with a less-developed finance sector, without cars and airplanes, yet here we are with entire sectors of the economy that probably aren't 'needed' for a happy life. At least in finance you can get to a number where you can finally say 'fuck it', and go do what you really want to do...

>At least in finance you can get to a number where you can finally say 'fuck it', and go do what you really want to do...

I recently quit my job. I was working for a large investment bank. Many people talk about leaving to do what they really want to do, something interesting that they can be proud of.

Very, very few actually do it. Turns out no amount of money is ever 'enough'. Turns out adjusting your lifestyle from 400k$ to 100k$ is not so easy.

This golden cage phenomenon is well described here: http://epicureandealmaker.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/can-buy-me-...

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#73
post #67
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing is, when it boils down to it, many jobs in our society are superfluous... We survived without technology, with a less-developed finance sector, without cars and airplanes, yet here we are with entire sectors of the economy that probably aren't 'needed' for a happy life. At least in finance you can get to a number where you can finally say 'fuck it', and go do what you really want to do...

I can't help it but comment on how much posts regarding work/life balance focus on optimizing for happiness, but rare is the article that mentions how important is finding meaning in one's work to leading a fulfilling life. I would argue, for example, that finding meaning as a grunt or even as a big fish in the financial sector is harder than say, being a doctor. It's much easier to work long hours as a doctor and fe…

It's more then that.. it's about perception (how you spin things). For example, you could look at american doctors and say they mainly work on patients of self-inflicted diseases such as heart disease, obesity, etc. Then you could look at finance sector workers and see how they help people get jobs, loans and move the economy forward which leads to furthering humanity's progress and capabilities.

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#74
post #65
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether you sympathize or not, saying "meh" to someone's death is a slippery slope with psychopathy at the bottom.

> Whether you sympathize or not, saying "meh" to someone's death is a slippery slope with psychopathy at the bottom. You literally made a "slippery slope argument". You might not be aware of it, but this is a logical fallacy [1]. Psychopathy is not the end result of lacking empathy to a certain person's death. [1] http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

So... does anyone else finds it funny that on that list, (2) is true and (1) is getting close?

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#75
post #33
post #3

Meh. I can't imagine the mindset that would lead someone to sacrifice their entire existence on the pyre of working; what's the point of making big cash if you've got no time or people to enjoy it with? I think that these kind of aberrant/nauseating/maladapted pathological behaviors (working insane hours, money addiction) show a bewildering lack of wisdom that is intentionally selected for among the "most competitive…

I can't escape the odour of sour grapes in discussions like these, where people who could have gone into finance reassure themselves and each other that they made the right decision to take a less lucrative path through life.

If you disagree with something in that comment, argue against it. Just implying baseless things about the poster instead, much less talking about "discussions like these" doesn't have the effect you may be seeking to convey.

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#76
post #59
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP but I struggle to sympathize with someone who takes that kind of job. I can't think up any other motivation other than greed or addiction to money/power. A friend of mine just turned down an insanely high paying Wall Street job. She told me that there was no way they could pay her that kind of salary without taking every second of her existence and every joule of her energy. A couple of week ago she went t…

> I can't think up any other motivation other than greed or addiction to money/power. A lot of people have been conditioned to achieve. In my foolish youth I spent a few years doing tech for financial traders and a number of my colleagues were former Olympic athletes. It was natural for them to jump into another demanding and competitive field. Other people I worked with were indeed addicts of various sorts. Finance…

> I agree it's a struggle to find compassion for people pulling down a lot of money. But I think it's worth the struggle. If there were fewer fucked up people in the world, we'd have a smaller, saner financial industry.

I totally agree. Especially since "fucked-up-ness" (e.g. alienation and narcissism/fleas) can be so infectious; abuse does breed abuse. Basically, the inability to have a fulfilling life without destroying self and/or others, and to even relate, think or talk about anything without some kind of stilted, shrill "corset" of euphemisms and rationalizations. I think it's all a matter of degree, too, it's not like "they" are fundamentally different from anyone else.

> [..] if one is in touch with one's own unconscious reality, I think one would have to admit that in all of us there is a piece of Eichmann, and if you ask why, on what basis do I say this, then I would ask you wether you have lost your appetite when you read that in India people were starving, or wether you have gone on eating. As soon as you have not lost your appetite, when you knew other people were starving, then your heart has hardened, and in principle, you have done the same which Eichmann did.

> I don't think, that if we are really in touch with the inner reality of ourselves, that there is any crime, or perhaps any virtue, which we cannot discover in ourselves. We shut ourselves [off] from the awareness of our inner reality, we project the evil to our opponents and enemies, and believe that the good is in ourselves; indidivually, nationally, and group-wise in general.

> But if you can really see that every one of us, carries all of humanity, the good and the evil, within himself, then indeed is very hard to be a fanatic, then indeed it's very hard to be a judge, then indeed would follow, a deep understanding, if not love, of your fellow man. Which is part of being truly a person.

-- Erich Fromm, lecture called "The Automaton Citizen"

I do think self-defense is also important, but there is something to be said for calm and non-hateful self-defence... being firm and focused doesn't mean you can't still have compassion with whom you're disarming. But by the same token: when we react differently, when we get angry, whether righteously or self-righteously, that may not be ideal, but it's also something to have compassion with, surely.

There is a window of opportunity; if what people turning themselves and others into robots, as age-old as that may be, doesn't get nipped in the bud before we can "grow" whatever robots we want orders of magnitude more cheaply than we are growing humans, then life on this planet will become infinitely more poor. When nobody gets fucking mad over this stuff anymore, it will be so much worse. I'm not saying getting mad is constructive, but it's understandable and secondary in the big scheme of things. Worker's rights weren't won for by people making polite suggestions, neither will be any future worth a thing. Apart from the people who have a change of heart or collapse, there are a lot who don't, and they play for keeps, while the people that die every few seconds don't even get to complain. It's not as if any of this happens in a vacuum.

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#77
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whether you sympathize or not, saying "meh" to someone's death is a slippery slope with psychopathy at the bottom. You literally made a "slippery slope argument". You might not be aware of it, but this is a logical fallacy [1]. Psychopathy is not the end result of lacking empathy to a certain person's death. [1] http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

So... does anyone else finds it funny that on that list, (2) is true and (1) is getting close?

Heh, yes, I noticed that. That's a good example for invalid reasoning leading to a correct conclusion.

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#78
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naturally I agree. The question is better framed thus: who has taken the more lucrative path in living their life? Who has found burgeoning vitality rather than pecuniary richness? Who has traded what is priceless for what can be used to pay other prices?

"Better framed" in the sense "tells you what you want to hear"?

"focuses on actually important things rather than mere money"

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#79
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you can't even 'muster empathy' for people like this? I can understand how you wouldn't want to work these hours, but when the article is detailing someone who dies and your first comment is 'Meh.', that's absolutely abhorrent to me.

Not the OP but I struggle to sympathize with someone who takes that kind of job. I can't think up any other motivation other than greed or addiction to money/power. A friend of mine just turned down an insanely high paying Wall Street job. She told me that there was no way they could pay her that kind of salary without taking every second of her existence and every joule of her energy. A couple of week ago she went t…

> I can't think up any other motivation other than greed or addiction to money/power.

Here's some possibilities:

-The desire to please others?

-Not knowing what else to do (Often the jobs are filled by kids who only know how to jump through hoops that others have set up for them)

-The hope that it's only going to be a few yers of grinding?

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#80
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you can't even 'muster empathy' for people like this? I can understand how you wouldn't want to work these hours, but when the article is detailing someone who dies and your first comment is 'Meh.', that's absolutely abhorrent to me.

Not the OP but I struggle to sympathize with someone who takes that kind of job. I can't think up any other motivation other than greed or addiction to money/power. A friend of mine just turned down an insanely high paying Wall Street job. She told me that there was no way they could pay her that kind of salary without taking every second of her existence and every joule of her energy. A couple of week ago she went t…

How about financial security/early retirement? Many people take jobs like this for 5-10 years, then quit with a little bit of security and freedom to do what they want. It's really not unlike what PG has advocated before for starting your own company.

I'm glad that your friend made that call, and I'm definitely not in the wall street camp, but I can see reasons for working there.

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