Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace • Hacker News Board

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#51

Post by pdglenn » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 4:16 AM UTC

graeme wrote: post #39

mattzito wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can think this through a few ways. One is that they see finance jobs as desirable jobs, focus their whole lives up to that point on getting the job, get it - and find it's horrible. What do you do then? Do you go back to all the people who were really proud at your achievements and tell them you're a failure? Another is that they really do think it gets better. If they can just make it through the first four or f…

>One is that they see finance jobs as desirable jobs, focus their whole lives up to that point on getting the job, get it - and find it's horrible. What do you do then? Do you go back to all the people who were really proud at your achievements and tell them you're a failure? Is it a surprise to those on that career path? I work with people applying to law school, and it's widely known that major firm jobs demand an…

As someone who knows many who went into this field, some who burned out and some who didn't, it's one thing to describe the challenge of 100 hour weeks, and another to live it.

Biglaw is similar, but the gulf from 80 hours to 100 hours is very large.

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#52

Post by touchofevil » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 4:23 AM UTC

My background is film production, which is an industry that I think has really tested the limits of how many hours a person can work without dying. If a film shoot could work their crew more hours, they would, but at a certain point your crew will die in car accidents on their way to and from set due to sleep deprivation. See a documentary called "Who Needs Sleep?" for more on that.

Thanks to unions in the film industry there are rules about how many hours a crew can work in a day without the production incurring very expensive overtime penalties. For example, once an actor is on set for 16 hours, they hit what is called "Golden Time" and they are paid their full day rate every hour. There's also a 12 hour turnaround for actors, meaning that if an actor is wrapped at 8pm, they can't be called to set until 8:00am the following day (there is a 10 hour turnaround time for crew).

Film shoots are extremely time-sensitive endeavors. You might only have rented a location for one day, so there is a lot of pressure to shoot everything you need for the movie at that location, no matter how far overtime the production must push their crew. This would quickly get out of control if overtime rules were not stringently enforced.

The result is that every day of a film production is scheduled down to the minute before the day even begins, ideally. Night crews and swing-shifts get scheduled, rather than working a crew for 24 hours straight, again ideally.

My point is that it is possible to do time-sensitive, high-pressure, complicated work without pushing people past their physical limits. It just requires tons of planning and scheduling. However the only way to get an employer to put resources into planning and scheduling is to make sure that there are incentives (or disincentives) for them to behave this way. There must be strict financial penalties that prevent employees at banks from working too many hours. A 29 year-old banker getting a $400,000 bonus is not going to tell his employer that he needs to leave the office by 7pm anymore than an aspiring Hollywood actress is going to tell her director that the crew must stop shooting because it is past her bedtime. In certain industries, where jobs are highly sought after and rewards are large, you cannot depend on workers to regulate themselves.

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#53

Post by labster » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 4:27 AM UTC

mattzito wrote: post #18

cryoshon wrote: post #3

Meh. I can't imagine the mindset that would lead someone to sacrifice their entire existence on the pyre of working; what's the point of making big cash if you've got no time or people to enjoy it with? I think that these kind of aberrant/nauseating/maladapted pathological behaviors (working insane hours, money addiction) show a bewildering lack of wisdom that is intentionally selected for among the "most competitive…

You can think this through a few ways. One is that they see finance jobs as desirable jobs, focus their whole lives up to that point on getting the job, get it - and find it's horrible. What do you do then? Do you go back to all the people who were really proud at your achievements and tell them you're a failure? Another is that they really do think it gets better. If they can just make it through the first four or f…

> One is that they see finance jobs as desirable jobs, focus their whole lives up to that point on getting the job, get it - and find it's horrible. What do you do then? Do you go back to all the people who were really proud at your achievements and tell them you're a failure?

One would hope that people in finance would understand the concept of sunk costs. Today is always the first day of the rest of your life. It's better to fail fast than to fail later, because you can get back to success and happiness faster.

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#54

Post by CurtMonash » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 4:33 AM UTC

I was on Wall Street in the 1980s. Things weren't that bad yet. I was the only stock analyst in a department of ~50 who routinely pulled all-nighters, which was one of many reasons I was considered odd. There was only one guy who definitely flamed out on cocaine, and only a few others of whom debilitating substance abuse could even be reasonably suspected.

And I'm pretty sure that investment banking wasn't all that much worse.

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#55

Post by graeme » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 4:55 AM UTC

pdglenn wrote: post #51

graeme wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>One is that they see finance jobs as desirable jobs, focus their whole lives up to that point on getting the job, get it - and find it's horrible. What do you do then? Do you go back to all the people who were really proud at your achievements and tell them you're a failure? Is it a surprise to those on that career path? I work with people applying to law school, and it's widely known that major firm jobs demand an…

As someone who knows many who went into this field, some who burned out and some who didn't, it's one thing to describe the challenge of 100 hour weeks, and another to live it. Biglaw is similar, but the gulf from 80 hours to 100 hours is very large.

I meant to imply that, but I guess I wasn't clear enough.

I hadn't realized 100 hours was the norm though. That is a significant increase over 80.

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#56

Post by Spooky23 » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 5:13 AM UTC

mattzito wrote: post #18

cryoshon wrote: post #3

Meh. I can't imagine the mindset that would lead someone to sacrifice their entire existence on the pyre of working; what's the point of making big cash if you've got no time or people to enjoy it with? I think that these kind of aberrant/nauseating/maladapted pathological behaviors (working insane hours, money addiction) show a bewildering lack of wisdom that is intentionally selected for among the "most competitive…

You can think this through a few ways. One is that they see finance jobs as desirable jobs, focus their whole lives up to that point on getting the job, get it - and find it's horrible. What do you do then? Do you go back to all the people who were really proud at your achievements and tell them you're a failure? Another is that they really do think it gets better. If they can just make it through the first four or f…

Spineless is the word.

This is all about the psychology of pride and envy. You go to Princeton, buy into the whole mindset and at the end of the day, when you figure it out, pride and greed prevent you from making a decision in your interest.

There's a reason why those things were categorized as Cardinal sins in the old days.

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#57

Post by mc32 » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 5:31 AM UTC

cryoshon wrote: post #3

Meh. I can't imagine the mindset that would lead someone to sacrifice their entire existence on the pyre of working; what's the point of making big cash if you've got no time or people to enjoy it with? I think that these kind of aberrant/nauseating/maladapted pathological behaviors (working insane hours, money addiction) show a bewildering lack of wisdom that is intentionally selected for among the "most competitive…

In some ways these people don't begin this way it don't imagine becoming what they do become and what they become is a product of the organizations they work for themselves. That is, outside of working for these organizations, these people would likely behave differently, so it's not something you can lay at their feet entirely.

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#58

Post by enraged_camel » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 5:45 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #50

vuldin wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This in all likelihood describes 1%of the 1%. Just adding in a little perspective.

> This in all likelihood describes 1%of the 1%. Just adding in a little perspective. It's way more than 1% of the young people slaving away in finance. Especially as finance has gotten less racist, a lot of high-achieving immigrant students go into it under pressure from their family.

Yes, but just because someone is an immigrant doesn't mean their motivation for working those jobs is to lift their family up. Immigrants can be selfish too. And they, too, can simply get addicted to money and power.

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#59

Post by wpietri » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 5:57 AM UTC

steve19 wrote: post #22

brainflake wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you can't even 'muster empathy' for people like this? I can understand how you wouldn't want to work these hours, but when the article is detailing someone who dies and your first comment is 'Meh.', that's absolutely abhorrent to me.

Not the OP but I struggle to sympathize with someone who takes that kind of job. I can't think up any other motivation other than greed or addiction to money/power. A friend of mine just turned down an insanely high paying Wall Street job. She told me that there was no way they could pay her that kind of salary without taking every second of her existence and every joule of her energy. A couple of week ago she went t…

> I can't think up any other motivation other than greed or addiction to money/power.

A lot of people have been conditioned to achieve. In my foolish youth I spent a few years doing tech for financial traders and a number of my colleagues were former Olympic athletes. It was natural for them to jump into another demanding and competitive field.

Other people I worked with were indeed addicts of various sorts. Finance is great for workaholics, adrenaline junkies, and thoroughly broken people. The intensity and the pace leave you little time or energy to think about the things inside you that you're dodging. And the money lets you paper over the holes in your life.

I agree it's a struggle to find compassion for people pulling down a lot of money. But I think it's worth the struggle. If there were fewer fucked up people in the world, we'd have a smaller, saner financial industry.

Re: Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

#60

Post by sdenton4 » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 6:47 AM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #46

sobinator wrote: post #45

A lot of good talent is wasted on Wall Street. Fortunately, most (who don't care for the lifestyle/can't hack it) get wise and leave. The hard thing is knowing when to exit.

> A lot of good talent is wasted on Wall Street. Why do you say that? Finance funds most of society's ventures, the 'system' would look much different without the capital and services that the banking sector provides...

What should we put as the price tag of 'increased liquidity,' just one of a few of the mantras that the middlemen of finance use to justify themselves?

http://www.tcf.org/blog/detail/graph-how-the-financial-secto...