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Google Cloud Shell

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Re: Google Cloud Shell

#131
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Otherwise what would you do if sshd crashed? Kill that instance, and spin up a new one. A wise BOFH gave a preso that stuck with me "Treat EC2 instances like cattle. When one strays off the farm, put a bullet in it's head." Don't treat your cloud machines as special snowflakes. Build infrastructure via script.

How does that add any security? Anyone with access to your root AWS credentials still has your IP addresses and your EBS volumes/snapshots and can do whatever they want.

I wasn't addressing security; I addressed your comment about what do you do if SSHD crashes.

For grins, I wonder how many root AWS creds are tied to Gmail (read: Google) accounts.

Re: Google Cloud Shell

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use AWS extensively as well, but really like this product plan. Ultimately what AWSClassic does is give you a lot of baremetal boxes to drop AMIs on. Google's changing that to the containerized model by offering direct services that are scheduled on hardware. As Kubernetes becomes more and more the primary method for deploying apps on Google's managed services, this approach will pay off more. But it's worth nothin…

> As VPCs become the mandatory methodology for AWS, it's increasingly annoying just to set up the bare minimum you need to get a capable shell inside your environment. Even experienced AWS users have trouble getting VPCs right given the state of the current documentation. Please. Even for an advanced VPC configuration, you're looking at 1-2 hours tops for setup. If you want point and click, go to Digital Ocean. Compl…

> Please. Even for an advanced VPC configuration, you're looking at 1-2 hours tops for setup.

We use DynamoDB. A lot of it. It is a non-trivial setup to get a dynamic, scaling solution to route traffic efficiently to the DynamoDB endpoints. Our SQS traffic sometimes also experienced extreme latency when we would send large groups of messages.

So forgive me if I greet your derisive tone and silverbacking with skepticism; I've got a product in the market already. I have correspondence from the AWS support explaining that it is in fact very difficult to operate at the scale we want to with some AWS Services that aren't supported, and the S3 connection was also not trivial. This is especially so if you're managing multiple discrete apps that don't coordinate usage or bandwidth spikes, as is common in large enterprise settings. Which is, ultimately, what we're doing.

> Complex tools are always going to have a learning curve.

There is no justification for the current mess that is Amazon's documentation for the VPC feature set. The only reason they get away with it is that AWSClassic is a giant band-aid which will be grandfathered onto customers with scaled products.

Arguing that things like Heroku or Digital Ocean or managed Kubernetes are bad and EC2 is good simply because it uses a hypervisor model instead of a container model is grandstanding and nonsensical, plain and simple.

The startup world has 0 use for this kind of thinking. What matters is how quickly you can deploy, and how efficiently and inexpensively you can scale if you get a hit. Everything else is ego, and useless in this environment.

There are systems that need AWS's model, but they're for specialist products. The vast majority of products can and do deploy in DO or Heroku just fine. And if they're sustaining people and serving customers, who are we to judge?

Re: Google Cloud Shell

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use AWS extensively as well, but really like this product plan. Ultimately what AWSClassic does is give you a lot of baremetal boxes to drop AMIs on. Google's changing that to the containerized model by offering direct services that are scheduled on hardware. As Kubernetes becomes more and more the primary method for deploying apps on Google's managed services, this approach will pay off more. But it's worth nothin…

Even experienced AWS users have trouble getting VPCs right given the state of the current documentation. No, no we don't. It's quite easy, and usually it only takes us a few minutes.

It is great if you're not experiencing the problems we are.

If you use AWS services besides S3 it can get very tricky to not overwhelm your egress and not suffer performance issues. Scaling this configuration in an elastic way is certainly not turnkey in the current VPC environment, and probably won't be until Amazon finishes something like the S3 gateway for them.

And the documentation is in a sorry state.

Re: Google Cloud Shell

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As VPCs become the mandatory methodology for AWS, it's increasingly annoying just to set up the bare minimum you need to get a capable shell inside your environment. Even experienced AWS users have trouble getting VPCs right given the state of the current documentation. Please. Even for an advanced VPC configuration, you're looking at 1-2 hours tops for setup. If you want point and click, go to Digital Ocean. Compl…

Another option is to use something like my CFNBuilder[0] to generate AWS CloudFormation templates. It should allow you to create a VPC (with a Bastion box, DNS proxy, NAT instance, etc.) with just a couple of keystrokes. VPCs don't have to be scary. :) [0] https://github.com/rnhurt/CFNBuilder

The NAT instances are so easy to overwhelm. You have to scale them along with the services you're using if you have significant use of other Amazon services.

Also, it's not clear to me why I should have to do that part on my own. The fact I need to engineer a solution for high volume access to AWS Services (besides S3) in a VPC is stupid. Especially when I can just keep using EC2C and honestly have an easier time of it, while also not having to migrate and rewrite existing infrastructure to become VPC-aware.

Re: Google Cloud Shell

#135
post #89
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is that? That's literally 4-6x more expensive than my electricity.

Germany, for example (Where I live). Most people don’t live in the US, and for most people wasting 1.20$ for a product where you save one or two lines of code to integrate it is not okay. I seriously rewrote several web products myself that I'd have to normally pay 4$ or so per month for. I took over development for the QuasselDroid Android client because I could not afford IRCCloud. I ended up rewriting all the feat…

> Germany, for example.

40c per kWh is outrageous. This certainly goes a long way in explaining the dismal failure of Tesla in Germany so far.

Re: Google Cloud Shell

#136
post #111

What's the point of this? I can already ssh into any of my instances on AWS, Linode, whatever platform. Is it just because it's in the browser. Who cares...

This is a big deal for high school students. They can use a school-issued laptop, but they can't install custom software (like an ssh client), so sites like Cloud9 provide access to something that would otherwise by inaccessible to them. Source: I'm a high school teacher at just such a school.

That's a problem with your high school and the device you are using which you don't have control over.

We're solving problems of high school students who don't have access to an SSH client now?

Re: Google Cloud Shell

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As VPCs become the mandatory methodology for AWS, it's increasingly annoying just to set up the bare minimum you need to get a capable shell inside your environment. Even experienced AWS users have trouble getting VPCs right given the state of the current documentation. Please. Even for an advanced VPC configuration, you're looking at 1-2 hours tops for setup. If you want point and click, go to Digital Ocean. Compl…

> Please. Even for an advanced VPC configuration, you're looking at 1-2 hours tops for setup. We use DynamoDB. A lot of it. It is a non-trivial setup to get a dynamic, scaling solution to route traffic efficiently to the DynamoDB endpoints. Our SQS traffic sometimes also experienced extreme latency when we would send large groups of messages. So forgive me if I greet your derisive tone and silverbacking with skeptici…

We'll agree to disagree then.

> There are systems that need AWS's model, but they're for specialist products.

Netflix. Tinder. Reddit. Yelp. Slack. Foursquare.

AWS' model works absolutely fine if you have systems knowledge. If you're looking for a PaaS, its of course not the solution for you. It feels like your comment is "Why doesn't AWS do what it wasn't designed for?"

Re: Google Cloud Shell

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another option is to use something like my CFNBuilder[0] to generate AWS CloudFormation templates. It should allow you to create a VPC (with a Bastion box, DNS proxy, NAT instance, etc.) with just a couple of keystrokes. VPCs don't have to be scary. :) [0] https://github.com/rnhurt/CFNBuilder

The NAT instances are so easy to overwhelm. You have to scale them along with the services you're using if you have significant use of other Amazon services. Also, it's not clear to me why I should have to do that part on my own. The fact I need to engineer a solution for high volume access to AWS Services (besides S3) in a VPC is stupid. Especially when I can just keep using EC2C and honestly have an easier time of…

You might have chosen the wrong platform for your needs.

Re: Google Cloud Shell

#139
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a big deal for high school students. They can use a school-issued laptop, but they can't install custom software (like an ssh client), so sites like Cloud9 provide access to something that would otherwise by inaccessible to them. Source: I'm a high school teacher at just such a school.

SSH clients do not need installation. I keep a copy of PuTTY on my USB drive for this scenario.

Yes, but there's also a whitelist for EXEs. As a teacher I can use PuTTY without installing it, but the students can't always do so.

Re: Google Cloud Shell

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please. Even for an advanced VPC configuration, you're looking at 1-2 hours tops for setup. We use DynamoDB. A lot of it. It is a non-trivial setup to get a dynamic, scaling solution to route traffic efficiently to the DynamoDB endpoints. Our SQS traffic sometimes also experienced extreme latency when we would send large groups of messages. So forgive me if I greet your derisive tone and silverbacking with skeptici…

We'll agree to disagree then. > There are systems that need AWS's model, but they're for specialist products. Netflix. Tinder. Reddit. Yelp. Slack. Foursquare. AWS' model works absolutely fine if you have systems knowledge. If you're looking for a PaaS, its of course not the solution for you. It feels like your comment is "Why doesn't AWS do what it wasn't designed for?"

Netflix, I agree. But what about Tinder, Reddit, Yelp, and Foursquare makes them unsuited to a PaaS? Is this, "It's not fast enough for my EXTREME METAL CLOSENESS?" arguments? Scaling them isn't inherently made easier by AWS. People said the same shit about AWS as opposed to your own data center.

The nice part about Google's approach, it gives you both worlds in an interoperable package. But I suppose you're more interested in the silverbacking than the specific technical arguments.

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