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The model minority is losing patience

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Re: The model minority is losing patience

#171

Post by ryaniwamoto »

beachstartup wrote: post #67
crimsonalucard wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an asian, I think shyness is also genetic. My parents were pretty lax in terms of discipline. So lax, that I ended up going to a community college after high school and transferring to ucla after i got my act together. This didn't stop me from being shy. Shyness is just a heightened fear response that's triggered during social situations. I think for asians the threshold for this trigger just lower when compared t…

i'm asian and i think this theory is 100% full of shit. you're making excuses for your under-developed social skills. how embarrassing.

How would you like it if someone said that to you? Do you act this way in real life? Sometimes I think the internet acts as a sort of alternate reality where people can just act like assholes without consequences. On the internet people cowardly hide behind nicknames, but in the real world you're exposing your physical identity to everyone. Things can get really dangerous.

-Ryan Iwamoto

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#172

Post by GhotiFish »

crimsonalucard wrote: post #102
1stop wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a bit literal. No one thinks all races are equal in a genetic sense, it is obvious they are different. They should be 'treated' equally is the thing we are taught. We all have our unique genetic advantages and disadvantages, but there shouldn't be social disadvantage based on genetics. It is good we are taught this, because it requires social change. Also to answer your points directly, they do not at…

>Otherwise, by your same reasoning: White men people are genetically superior at leading, running companies, space travel, research, etc... Where as the truth, I suspect, lies in the context of their social situation, not their race. By my line of reasoning superior skill in leading is a genetic possibility. You suspect the truth lies in the context of the social situation but can you prove it? Can you prove it eithe…

Personally? I do not believe normal human beings can operate under a mental framework that does not explicitly say "all humans are objectively equal". I am fully convinced that the moment they think anything else, it will ultimately to the conclusion that their own race is superior in some respect, and will use it as some form of justification for something horrible later down the line.

I agree with you, that there may be genetic dispositions to things, I don't know what they are, but it seems logical. The problem is such a public notion isn't pragmatic.

Reality or not, humans can't handle it. So we're equal. Maybe you can handle it, I think I can handle it, I think my friends can handle it. I don't think the human race can handle it. We're equal.

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#173

Post by crimsonalucard »

GhotiFish wrote: post #172
crimsonalucard wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Otherwise, by your same reasoning: White men people are genetically superior at leading, running companies, space travel, research, etc... Where as the truth, I suspect, lies in the context of their social situation, not their race. By my line of reasoning superior skill in leading is a genetic possibility. You suspect the truth lies in the context of the social situation but can you prove it? Can you prove it eithe…

Personally? I do not believe normal human beings can operate under a mental framework that does not explicitly say "all humans are objectively equal". I am fully convinced that the moment they think anything else, it will ultimately to the conclusion that their own race is superior in some respect, and will use it as some form of justification for something horrible later down the line. I agree with you, that there m…

Of course. I'm describing the state of the world not proposing a solution. Deluding ourselves into believing in Equality is probably the best possible, although imperfect, solution. I am simply addressing this imperfection and using it to explain why discrimination still occurs in a world that largely finds discrimination abhorrent. After all, this is a forum for intelligent debate.

That being said, posting a topic on genetic or racial superiority tends trigger extreme reactive responses in people. Under normal circumstances I would have been voted down and attacked by multiple negative comments remarking about my character. Nobody would have tried to understand my logical view point and they usually automatically dismiss me as racist.

You'll note that none of that is happening in this thread. A lot of people are quite accepting of this idea or addressing the issue in a friendly way despite the controversial nature.

It is because I had to spend deliberate effort to craft the language and structure of the post to present truths in a way that is self evident and extremely unhostile. So while I believe there is really no need to pull humanity out of this delusion of total racial equality... in a sense this thread is proof that the world can probably handle the truth... you just need to present the view in the right light.

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#174

Post by crimsonalucard »

ryanmonroe wrote: post #141
xyzzyz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So how is this different than people with different physical characteristics from birth? That's because skin color and facial features are directly caused by the DNA. They are just different manifestations of the same trait. DNA is also known to correlate with intelligence. Just like flattening round balls will make them slower, picking embryos with gene combinations known to correlate with higher intelligence will…

>DNA is also known to correlate with intelligence. But not with race. You can't tell which race someone is by their DNA, because, and here's the key point I think people are missing, race is a social construct based on appearance , not a biological reality. >picking embryos with gene combinations known to correlate with higher intelligence will cause the resulting humans to have higher intelligence on average. But im…

Here's the thing... traits some in collections. Mongoloid or African American are words that describe a collection of physical traits.

Black people will have darker skin AND frizzy hair. Asians have asian eyes AND black hair. This is proof that traits are inherited in collective groups.

You are stating by certain magic these collections of physical traits that describe an asian or a caucasian magically only correlate with other physical traits. So in a sense, for asians: Black hair correlates with asian eyes but these traits can absolutely never ever correlate with anything related to intelligence and behavior.

What is the mechanism in genetics that deliberately demarcates physical traits from behavioral traits? What causes social traits to be totally random while physical traits come correlated with one another? I think it is more logical to conclude that there is no mechanism that does this.

Please note that I am well versed in the theory you present. It is often used as a scientific basis for racial equality. I agree with the intent of the theory but I disagree with it as a practical truth. Life is just unfair. Anyway, the theory does address a valid point but here's why I think it's wrong:

I think searching for genetic markers at the molecular level doesn't yield results because behavioral and physical traits are abstractions on top of DNA.

Imagine two programs, one written in C++, the other in Haskell. Both programs have the same behavior... let's say they both return the derivative of an expression. If you analyze the source code for correlations without completely understanding it (largely the way we analyze DNA today) you will find that the languages are completely uncorrelated. Both are totally different in style, structure and syntax. This occurs even though the surface behavior (finding the derivative of an expression) is exactly identical. This is what I believe is happening with the DNA. You cannot find correlations with race because the correlations only occur at a higher level of abstraction not in the source code.

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#175

Post by omonra »

jackpirate wrote: post #167
omonra wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to call out your casual mentioning of someone's race being responsible for them going to jail. That's not really what happens - rather that someone breaks the law and goes to jail. I'm not aware of law-abiding members of any race going to jail (while the article demonstrates that Asians who do everything same as whites or blacks have no chance of getting into Harvard).

Everyone breaks the law. Some people get disproportionate punishment. So while your statement is true, it entirely misses the point.

This is a factually unsupported assertion.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/miarticle.htm?id=458...

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#176

Post by jackpirate »

omonra wrote: post #175
jackpirate wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone breaks the law. Some people get disproportionate punishment. So while your statement is true, it entirely misses the point.

This is a factually unsupported assertion. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/miarticle.htm?id=458...

From your article:

> In 2006, the black arrest rate for most crimes was two to nearly three times blacks’ representation in the population. Blacks constituted 39.3% of all violent-crime arrests, including 56.3% of all robbery and 34.5% of all aggravated-assault arrests, and 29.4% of all property-crime arrests.

This paragraph is presupposing that the arrest process is fair to assert that blacks deserve their higher prison sentences.

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#177

Post by 9872 »

dang wrote: post #166
9872 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no interest in following those guidelines. A threat only works if the execution of the threat is worse than the thing I'm being coerced into doing.

> I have no interest in following [the] guidelines Ok, we've banned this account.

Your loss.

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#178

Post by omonra »

jackpirate wrote: post #176
omonra wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a factually unsupported assertion. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/miarticle.htm?id=458...

From your article: > In 2006, the black arrest rate for most crimes was two to nearly three times blacks’ representation in the population. Blacks constituted 39.3% of all violent-crime arrests, including 56.3% of all robbery and 34.5% of all aggravated-assault arrests, and 29.4% of all property-crime arrests. This paragraph is presupposing that the arrest process is fair to assert that blacks deserve their higher pr…

I'm not sure if you missed these two points:

"From 1976 to 2005, blacks committed more than 52% of all murders in America."

and

"The advocates acknowledge such crime data only indirectly: by charging bias on the part of the system’s decision makers. As Obama suggested in the Martin Luther King debate, police, prosecutors and judges treat blacks and whites differently “for the same crime.”

But in fact, cops don’t over-arrest blacks and ignore white criminals. The race of criminals reported by crime victims matches arrest data. No one has ever come up with a plausible argument as to why crime victims would be biased in their reports."

The simple truth of the matter (which our entire discussion boils down to) is that blacks commit crime at a rate vastly exceeding other groups. For more stats please see: http://www.infowars.com/black-crime-facts-that-the-white-lib...

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#179

Post by mazerackham »

dnautics wrote: post #117
rsy96 wrote: post #80

One reason that Asians outperform other racial groups in the United States is overlooked in the article: the difficulty of immigration. Most whites and blacks are born within the US, and Hispanics are either born or move into the US by simply crossing a land border. For Asians to come to the US, they have to cross the Pacific Ocean. In order to do that, they have to be either rich (at least middle class), highly educ…

I'm a fifth generation Asian American and my family came to Hawaii as plantation workers, my father was the first in the family to go to college, and made captain in the US Navy. Ironically in his civilian (government) job his performance reviews can back as "no leadership potential" despite that in his military job he led the team that implemented the first digital inventory for the navy...

I had a similar situation at work recently. I've always been a high performer and natural leader. People love talking with me, they trust me with their problems, and I do the best I can to help them out. I lead from behind, and try to guide people forward. I've been a manager of a large team, and was up to be promoted to manage an even larger team. I left instead to start my own company. That company got acquired and I got a new manager. The new manager was terrible, and had no idea what was going on with the team. He regularly skipped 1:1s, and after almost 2 months of not talking with him, I get my review feedback.

He mentioned a lot of really positive qualities (great at technical work), but his one criticism for me was that I could "show more leadership". He failed to expound on that when I asked him for examples. He was so uninvolved with our day to day, he was rarely present. Little did he know, I was the one working behind the scenes keeping his flailing team together. This struck me down pretty hard, it was my first known experience with racism in the American workplace. My confidence shattered, and I started doubting myself. I hope to put this experience behind me soon, but it left some serious doubts for me, and honestly, it made me reconsider my previously ambitious aspirations. After this experience, I started really emphasizing with the experiences of women in the workplace.

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#180

Post by mazerackham »

nailer wrote: post #124
rsy96 wrote: post #80

One reason that Asians outperform other racial groups in the United States is overlooked in the article: the difficulty of immigration. Most whites and blacks are born within the US, and Hispanics are either born or move into the US by simply crossing a land border. For Asians to come to the US, they have to cross the Pacific Ocean. In order to do that, they have to be either rich (at least middle class), highly educ…

It's also entirely possible that, on average, Asian people are more intelligent than other groups. We won't really know for a long time, as discussing such things is taboo.

I definitely don't think this is true, and I'm Asian as well. I think the parent has a better hypothesis, it's the higher bar for immigration. I bet the demographics of Asian immigrants is way higher educated than the average American. My dad has a PhD, my mom multiple Bachelors, and pretty much all of their Chinese friends had at least a Bachelors, most likely a Masters of PhD.

I would say it's very possible that genetically, the Asian population in America is smarter than the average American. Combine that with a culture that emphasizes hard work and education and you'll have extraordinary results. But don't think that Asians are more intelligent as a whole. There are plenty of idiots back in China to balance that out.

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