The model minority is losing patience • Hacker News Board

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#101

Post by caseysoftware » Sat, Oct 03, 2015, 2:49 PM UTC

cousin_it wrote: post #12

golemotron wrote: post #6

I was talking to someone just out of college the other day and she was adamant that reverse racism doesn't exist. To her it isn't racism unless it happens to a group lower in a power ordering. The exact position of groups in that ordering wasn't clear but it was clear that Asians were higher than other groups. Identity politics is a very dehumanizing philosophy. It tells us that we must be seen through a label we can…

Yeah. The ultimate goal of such redefinitions is to imply that some groups' problems are inherently more important, more worth addressing. But that's not true. All suffering is suffering.

It has become the Oppression Special Olympics.

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#102

Post by crimsonalucard » Sat, Oct 03, 2015, 2:50 PM UTC

1stop wrote: post #69

crimsonalucard wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The title may refer asians as a minority. However, while asians definitely aren't a minority in the context of the world, they still are a minority in the context of the united states and Europe. All of that, however, is completely irrelevant of the issue. What is the issue? Vanity? No. The issue is racism. When a race delivers quantitative metrics that beats other races out of the water, what does it mean? When blac…

I think that's a bit literal. No one thinks all races are equal in a genetic sense, it is obvious they are different. They should be 'treated' equally is the thing we are taught. We all have our unique genetic advantages and disadvantages, but there shouldn't be social disadvantage based on genetics. It is good we are taught this, because it requires social change. Also to answer your points directly, they do not at…

>Otherwise, by your same reasoning: White men people are genetically superior at leading, running companies, space travel, research, etc... Where as the truth, I suspect, lies in the context of their social situation, not their race.

By my line of reasoning superior skill in leading is a genetic possibility. You suspect the truth lies in the context of the social situation but can you prove it? Can you prove it either way? Without more evidence and from a neutral perspective both situations have roughly equal probability of being true.

My argument is that it is this cultural attitude of equality that makes us point to the social context rather than the genetic context when empirically speaking we don't know either way.

>"Working harder" is a cultural/social quality not a genetic quality. Same with black people dominating basketball, could just as easily be explained with social qualities rather than genetic. Really you have presented weak hypothesises in the form of rhetorical questions.

You really think black people dominating in the olympics and basketball and athletics in general isn't genetic? I can't prove it but this is something that's kind of intuitively obvious.

Here's an example of how genetics can influence how hard an organism works: Compare the busy bee with the sloth. Which one works harder? If genetics can influence how hard animals work, what magic makes it not touch how hard human races work or how intelligent they are? Can you prove it either way?

>They should be 'treated' equally is the thing we are taught. We all have our unique genetic advantages and disadvantages, but there shouldn't be social disadvantage based on genetics. It is good we are taught this, because it requires social change.

What makes this "hypotheses" true? You're saying all races magically have genetic strengths and weakness perfectly balanced the same way zergs, terran and protoss are balanced in starcraft? Tell me, what magical hand is enforcing this balance? Blizzard? Keep in mind, genetics is intrinsically linked with social behavior, it is not exclusively tied to just physical traits.

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#103

Post by aianus » Sat, Oct 03, 2015, 2:51 PM UTC

rsy96 wrote: post #80

One reason that Asians outperform other racial groups in the United States is overlooked in the article: the difficulty of immigration. Most whites and blacks are born within the US, and Hispanics are either born or move into the US by simply crossing a land border. For Asians to come to the US, they have to cross the Pacific Ocean. In order to do that, they have to be either rich (at least middle class), highly educ…

No idea why you're being downvoted, this is the reason right here. I don't think I've met a single poor Chinese person in Canada.

Which makes sense since you can't immigrate here without a degree in a field the government has put on an 'in-demand' list. That or a spouse or family member financially sponsoring you.

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#104

Post by kenjackson » Sat, Oct 03, 2015, 2:57 PM UTC

golemotron wrote: post #95

chiaro wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just a misunderstanding over the definition. Racism as a subject of study in the humanities refers to these societal power structures, and it was this definition and usage she was probably cleaving to. The world would definitely be a better if we didn't recognize labels, but since I kind of hit the trifecta as far as race, gender etc goes, I fit into society just fine. Those who feel marginalised by society fo…

It's very hard to believe that this redefinition of the word racism was done innocently. On its face racism is act of distinguishing people by race for favor or disfavor. When it is redefined as it has been in the humanities it leaves a vacuum. There's no longer a word for the concept that racism originally referred to.

Its true there is no single word, but I think in this circle they use terms for this. Racial discrimination or prejudice.

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#105

Post by jerrickhoang » Sat, Oct 03, 2015, 3:00 PM UTC

wozniacki wrote: post #83

puredemo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"All these Asian applicants look the same..." Seems to be her meta-message.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but 20% of those admitted were Asian American, for the class of 2019, in a country where less than 5%, self-identify as Asian-American.[1][2] https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/06/how-to-... [2] http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/06/how-to-...

Yeah, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be more.

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#106

Post by kenjackson » Sat, Oct 03, 2015, 3:02 PM UTC

pointeroffact wrote: post #70

wozniacki wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the horse's mouth: “We could fill our class twice over with valedictorians,” Harvard President Drew Gilpin Faust told an audience at the Aspen Ideas Festival, sponsored by the Aspen Institute and The Atlantic, on Monday. That means admissions officers rely on intangibles like interesting essays or particularly unusual recommendations to decide who comprises the 5.9 percent of applicants who get in. Faust's top t…

in other words, use unclear and vague criteria to judge admissions that just happen to massively disadvantage asian americans. it's strange that Faust is not condemned for her absurd and racist suggestion that asian american applicants are on average much less "interesting" people.

The problem is that the SAT isn't a very interesting test, IMO, for college admission. It doesn't test achievement, but is closer to an IQ test. I think its reasonable for top-tier schools to create a cut-off, but once you score above a threshold, I don't think it provides much value.

And as another poster noted -- Asians are still greatly overrepresented at Harvard. Faust really is saying that Whites aren't interesting (Blacks are of about average interest as their numbers match the general population now).

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#107

Post by chiaro » Sat, Oct 03, 2015, 3:03 PM UTC

golemotron wrote: post #95

chiaro wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just a misunderstanding over the definition. Racism as a subject of study in the humanities refers to these societal power structures, and it was this definition and usage she was probably cleaving to. The world would definitely be a better if we didn't recognize labels, but since I kind of hit the trifecta as far as race, gender etc goes, I fit into society just fine. Those who feel marginalised by society fo…

It's very hard to believe that this redefinition of the word racism was done innocently. On its face racism is act of distinguishing people by race for favor or disfavor. When it is redefined as it has been in the humanities it leaves a vacuum. There's no longer a word for the concept that racism originally referred to.

It's not taking anything away--both definitions are valid and commonly used. It's just up to the pair of you to realize you're talking past each other. She'd probably have no trouble agreeing that white people can be the target of bigotry just as you'd agree that white people are rarely at the pointy end of broader systemic injustices, at least in this society.

Much as it may be fun, I'd caution against attributing it some kind of conspiracy of sociologists.

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#108

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 03, 2015, 3:04 PM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #92

ryanmonroe wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If races look different, then the possibility of other metrics being different is a logical induction. This doesn't follow. It becomes more clear why if you put it in more abstract terms. Take a bunch of balls, half red, half blue. Now assume some half of these balls are heavy (say 10lbs) and some half are light (say 2 lbs). Assume the balls have a bunch of other characteristics this way. Now what you're saying is…

You can talk about red and blue balls all you want, but what matters is the real world. It's not inconceivable that like there are physical differences between the races, that there can be other differences as well. Refusing to see this isn't reasonable.

[deleted]

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#109

Post by kenjackson » Sat, Oct 03, 2015, 3:05 PM UTC

lazyant wrote: post #14

nraynaud wrote: post #4

What's interesting to me too, is that they are also neglected in the discussion about diversity in tech. They are the most over represented minority in tech, and instead of looking into why, and how it happens, can we find a leverage for other minorities, what open them doors but not blacks and hispanics, they are just overlooked. Complaining people just overlook them as: "it's a bunch of white males", but Asians (an…

A bit off-topic but on US tv shows is ridiculous how actors (esp. main characters) are usually white or black, little or no Asians and Hispanics. "Friday Night Lights" is about teenagers in Texas (1/3 pop. Hispanic) and they are all white or black (they even had an episode or more about the divide), not a single Hispanic or Asian ever (only one secondary character for a bit). EDIT: Also we laugh now at stereotypes li…

Best remedy -- watch shows with other minority actors.

I watch Fresh of the Boat and just started watching Quantico, among other shows with non-traditional ethnic leads. And TV is one of the few places in society where its relatively easy to show your support for diversity.

Re: The model minority is losing patience

#110

Post by iconhacker » Sat, Oct 03, 2015, 3:07 PM UTC

mdorazio wrote: post #79

pointeroffact wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in other words, use unclear and vague criteria to judge admissions that just happen to massively disadvantage asian americans. it's strange that Faust is not condemned for her absurd and racist suggestion that asian american applicants are on average much less "interesting" people.

That's a rather pithy way to interpret what was said. Here's an alternate interpretation: be different from all the other applicants. If you have the same grades, the same extracurriculars, and the same things to talk about in an essay, you're not going to be different from everyone else and thus won't get in. And that's the nature of being different - you can't quantify it until you see it. Having gone to a high-per…

How many Latino or African American kids are different? How many "White" kids are standing out? All white kids seem the same is not an understatement.