Live data from Hacker News

Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

theverge.com

31–40 of 51 posts

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#31
post #7
post #2

No shit. We took their land, killed their families and friends, and quarantined them to "reserves". Then introduced them to alcohol. What did you think would happen? It isn't genetics, it is escape-ism.

This is the story of all humanity up until the last couple of centuries. Tribes, countries, empires killing and conquering. It's not a uniquely American phenomenon. It's still happening in many places today. I think we need to stop leaning on past atrocities (without endorsing or excusing them in any way) as an excuse for not being responsible adults in the here and now. We can't change the past, we can only live the…

>This is the story of all humanity up until the last couple of centuries. Tribes, countries, empires killing and conquering. It's not a uniquely American phenomenon. It's still happening in many places today.

Americans (European settlers that is, but later Americans too) did it in an unprecedented scale -- similarly to European colonialists elsewhere at the same time.

And unlike those older tribes which saw power for what it is, they presumed to have the moral high ground (and/or a "manifest destiny").

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#32
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lactose tolerance is believed to have developed in the last 5,000 - 10,000 years. There was recently a news story about the Inuit having an adaptation that is at most 20,000 years old [1], and probably unique to them. The deeper we dig into genes the more stuff like this we'll find. It wasn't a silly theory. It may be wrong , but it wasn't silly. [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/science/inuit-study-adds-t...

Except that neither of those examples involve new substances. Lactose has been around for literally millions of years. Genes for dealing with it, or not, are part of what makes us mammals (ie things with mammary glans that nurse their young). And the gene found in the Inuit has not appeared recently. It exists nearly worldwide and is far older than its recent rise to prominence in the inuit. It has not evolved anew.…

Why believe that it takes thousands of years to select and enhance a gene? We have selectively bred animals in decades to exhibit traits that were useful, and long before we had any concept of genetics.

We have evidence of the production of beer dating back before the Pyramids - and beer and wine were staples of pre-modern diets in the old world, that everyone drank, at least in the form of watered wine and small-beer, as the drinking water all-too-often would kill you. Why should we not expect to see genetic adaptation in such an environment?

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#33
post #15
post #2

No shit. We took their land, killed their families and friends, and quarantined them to "reserves". Then introduced them to alcohol. What did you think would happen? It isn't genetics, it is escape-ism.

That stuff happened generations ago so I don't think it's the main reason there is such a drinking problem among Natives today. Having spent some time around Native Americans here are some observations. Often when they drink they get carried away and drink to excess for the session. They often don't just sit and chat while doing it but engage in some fairly crazy behavior like turning over cars etc. Alcohol does appe…

>That stuff happened generations ago so I don't think it's the main reason there is such a drinking problem among Natives today.

Yeah, they are just 1/20th of the numbers they used to be due to ethnic cleansing, having subjected to concentration camps for re-education just a century ago, equally looked down upon as blacks, living deprived from the original lands their culture and society was based on and moved to settlements far away from their homes...

Why wont those fools accept that what's past is past?

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#34
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That stuff happened generations ago so I don't think it's the main reason there is such a drinking problem among Natives today. Having spent some time around Native Americans here are some observations. Often when they drink they get carried away and drink to excess for the session. They often don't just sit and chat while doing it but engage in some fairly crazy behavior like turning over cars etc. Alcohol does appe…

> That stuff happened generations ago so I don't think it's the main reason there is such a drinking problem among Natives today. NO, boarding schools, forced adoption, forced relocation to urban environments happened within the current generations. Anyone thinking this is old problems has not looked at new from Indian country. "Having spent some time around Native Americans here are some observations" I am typing th…

Boarding schools and forced adoption weren't was OP mentioned though. What he mentioned was having friends and family killed and land stolen and being forced onto reservations. That stuff hasn't happened in a very long time so I have trouble believing it is the reason for drinking problems.

I agree on the foolishness of grouping all tribes. There are vast range of cultures of varying ages and certainly they have many dissimilarities.

I'm just relating my limited observations in context of two tribes in the SW. In my experience, alcohol does appear to affect the members differently. I don't think its all cultural but does have a biological basis. Just my opinion.

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#35
post #13

A person with a masters degree in social work assures us that the genetic evidence collected to date is bunk. >severe stress doesn’t just affect one generation: it is passed down, both socially — affecting parenting — and physiologically, by actually changing how children’s genes are read, which can alter both brain and body, a phenomenon known as epigenetics. Research on children of Holocaust survivors, for example,…

I wish people would stop making blanket claims about epigenetics like that, but somehow I doubt it will ever happen -- the explanation is just too convenient.

I thought this was a pretty good response to the referenced study:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2015/sep/11/why-im-s...

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#36
post #13

A person with a masters degree in social work assures us that the genetic evidence collected to date is bunk. >severe stress doesn’t just affect one generation: it is passed down, both socially — affecting parenting — and physiologically, by actually changing how children’s genes are read, which can alter both brain and body, a phenomenon known as epigenetics. Research on children of Holocaust survivors, for example,…

[deleted]

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#37
post #8

> Rates of all types of addiction — not just alcohol — are elevated in aboriginal peoples around the world, not only in America. It’s unlikely that these scattered groups randomly happen to share more vulnerability genes for addiction than any other similarly dispersed people. This isn't sound science. Just look at a map of lactose tolerance and you will find that people not exposed to milk-producing livestock until…

There is likely a combination of social and genetic factors; while the social factors mentioned in the article affect the rates of alcoholism, there is a significant genetic component, which the article claims has no evidence, but ignores the evidence that exists!

Alcohol metabolism in humans varies among populations, with some having a greater capability to metabolize it. The article fails to even mention the purported genetic causes (lack of ADH or ALDH), which would seem to be important if you are going to claim that the existing evidence is wrong.

That genetics affects rates of alcoholism is not a controversial opinion: the NIH has a report on the variance caused by genetics ( http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh301/3-4.htm ), noting that "Native Americans and Alaskan Natives are five times more likely than other ethnicities in the United States to die of alcohol-related causes. Native Americans are predisposed to alcoholism because of differences in the way they metabolize alcohol."

This makes sense when you consider the environment of the social sciences today, which favors nurture over nature. Anything that is influenced by social interaction (e.g. stress causing alcoholism) must be caused by it, even if there actually are genetic influences. Unfortunately, there is a cost to the emphasis on social interaction. Suppose that some people have a genetic predisposition to alcoholism, but they believe that it is caused only by social factors. Then they will be more inclined to put themselves at risk by drinking with friends.

(A similar argument for genetic testing can be made for the APOE gene, which modulates risk of Alzheimer's from drinking. For instance, people with APOE 2/2 are LESS likely to get Alzheimer's if they drink, while those with APOE 4/4 are MORE likely to get Alzheimer's. Claiming that Alzheimer's is caused merely by social interaction while ignoring this genetic effect leads to everyone being worse off).

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#38

I'd be interested in hearing from, say, a biologist or a medical doctor, too. But the article only interviews academics from social work and psychology. I'd like to see some links to research on genetics. The article links only research on environmental factors in addiction. The article's conclusion may well be right, but it's not convincing if you don't agree with the conclusion before reading it.

google heritable epigenetics and you'll find plenty of papers; there is new research in behavioral epigenetics showing inherited stress hormone changes in descendents of holocaust survivors

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#39
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That stuff happened generations ago so I don't think it's the main reason there is such a drinking problem among Natives today. NO, boarding schools, forced adoption, forced relocation to urban environments happened within the current generations. Anyone thinking this is old problems has not looked at new from Indian country. "Having spent some time around Native Americans here are some observations" I am typing th…

Boarding schools and forced adoption weren't was OP mentioned though. What he mentioned was having friends and family killed and land stolen and being forced onto reservations. That stuff hasn't happened in a very long time so I have trouble believing it is the reason for drinking problems. I agree on the foolishness of grouping all tribes. There are vast range of cultures of varying ages and certainly they have many…

"friends and family killed and land stolen"

Well, the whole urban relocation resulted in a high suicide rate (90% in some studies), and land most certainly was stolen in the current generation. Look at the ongoing lawsuits against the Department of the Interior. So, no, it was done differently but it has happened again (ongoing) recently.

I too believe in the biological because its too many varied cultures to call it all cultural.

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#40
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That stuff happened generations ago so I don't think it's the main reason there is such a drinking problem among Natives today. NO, boarding schools, forced adoption, forced relocation to urban environments happened within the current generations. Anyone thinking this is old problems has not looked at new from Indian country. "Having spent some time around Native Americans here are some observations" I am typing th…

Boarding schools and forced adoption weren't was OP mentioned though. What he mentioned was having friends and family killed and land stolen and being forced onto reservations. That stuff hasn't happened in a very long time so I have trouble believing it is the reason for drinking problems. I agree on the foolishness of grouping all tribes. There are vast range of cultures of varying ages and certainly they have many…

Did alcoholism increase among Japanese that were forced into internment camps in the US?
Post reply on HN