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Why Fogbugz lost to Jira

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Re: Why Fogbugz lost to Jira

#241

Post by 1wd »

simoncion wrote: post #206
jeffmk wrote: post #130

Has anyone had experience with Redmine [1]? It's quite easy to use and extend via its plugin system, but I don't see many people who have encountered it in the wild. I think its horrendous out-of-the-box look-and-feel detract heavily from its appeal. Nowadays I'd probably lean toward Gitlab, which seems to offer much of the same but appears much more modern. [1] https://www.redmine.org/

I've used Redmine. It's a MUCH better Trac. Out of the box, it's ugly, but -frankly- who cares? We're all programmers here, and value proper function much more highly than lacquered handles. :)

What are the main things it does better than Trac?

Re: Why Fogbugz lost to Jira

#242

Post by 1wd »

nostrademons wrote: post #18
MichaelGG wrote: post #6

Yet FogBugz still feels way easier to use. Every time I'm in an Atlassian product, mainly Stash and JIRA, the UI sucks. I use them several times a week and still get lost. Maybe I'm dumb, but I don't seem to have this problem on other systems. But hey, at least JIRA isn't the craptastic laggy pos that is Podio. Certainly right that I've never seen FogBugz outside of myself or customers. Also, I think the name must hu…

I dunno, I had the opposite impression. I worked at a company from 2005-2007 that was evaluating FogBugz as a bugtracker, and found that (at least on Linux, which we were using) it was very unpolished. At the same time, some of our dependencies used Jira for their public issue tracker, and I recall looking at it and thinking it was the only bugtracker I'd actually like to use. Nowadays I'd probably just use GitHub Is…

Trac is still around. Trac 1.2 is planned this year. There are many users [1] e.g. jQuery, WebKit, WordPress, GHC, FFmpeg, ...

[1] http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracUsers

Re: Why Fogbugz lost to Jira

#243

Post by joncooper »

__david__ wrote: post #213
baus wrote: post #97

It could be argued that Trello will eventually be larger than either of these products, so I don't think the story has been completely told. I've used Jira as a manager in both a large and a small installation and hated it both times. It feels like 90s bug tracking system with huge forms and intractable workflows. With that said, Spolsky (although I think a lot of his writing is fantastic) rarely addresses his mistak…

Trello doesn't really seem like a bug tracker. I haven't used it though—maybe I'm just missing something?

Agreed. I kind of don't get Trello. Always thought of it as kind of a lightweight "stack of cards" analogue best used for simple high-level planning along the lines of a Kanban board. Is that how people use it?

Re: Why Fogbugz lost to Jira

#244

Post by devhead »

chetanahuja wrote: post #219
_pius wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK someone has to call bullshit on this. I started as a lowly software engineer straight out of school at the same time. I started at 70K ... Joel started Fog Creek in 2000, but began programming professionally much earlier than that.

That sentence construction certainly implied otherwise. Even disregarding the part about starting salaries, the implication that programmers were treated as "typists" circa year 2000 is preposterous. This is around the height of the first dot.com boom and tales of extravagant programmer salaries was already legend. Starting his argument with such a patently absurd claim just discredits everything else he says later o…

it is over 100 degrees outside, the world is round.

so does that mean if you don't agree with me that it's hot out where i live at this point in time and space that you don't agree that the world is round?

opportunity is different for different people in different places at different times. No need to be so flippant because he relayed his experience with you.

starting salary of 70k is pretty darn lucky without experience, many developers started out much lower than that and they still do. The point is the corporate attitude towards developers has changed greatly since 2000; from my view point i agree completely.

try starting out making 18k a year and then come post how much you feel valued.

Re: Why Fogbugz lost to Jira

#245

Post by wpietri »

jharger wrote: post #238
wpietri wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it depends on the company. I've worked inside organizations where that be entirely unacceptable. The date and feature sets are both fixed in advance and are treated as immutable. Nobody would say what you said, but if they did, they'd be on their way out.

Was it the organization or a specific manager who responded that way?

Both. The times I have seen it, it has been an endemic cultural problem, but most managers participate fully in the madness.

Re: Why Fogbugz lost to Jira

#246

Post by spronkey »

MichaelGG wrote: post #6

Yet FogBugz still feels way easier to use. Every time I'm in an Atlassian product, mainly Stash and JIRA, the UI sucks. I use them several times a week and still get lost. Maybe I'm dumb, but I don't seem to have this problem on other systems. But hey, at least JIRA isn't the craptastic laggy pos that is Podio. Certainly right that I've never seen FogBugz outside of myself or customers. Also, I think the name must hu…

Came here to say this (about the name). What corporate pointy eared would buy a product called FogBugz over one called JIRA? I mean really. No contest right there.

Re: Why Fogbugz lost to Jira

#247

Post by [deleted] »

julianz wrote: post #199
mangeletti wrote: post #189

What about the name? He could have potentially left out the most important mistake Spolsky ever made, which is to name a product Fog Buzz. He might as well have named it Rain Smelt, or Lamp Shade. It sounds terrific once you use and like the product, but it doesn't sound remnisent of any kind of successful brand ever. Even the use of 2 words is a departure from the norm. Most of the big brands have 1-word names, and…

Possibly your most important mistake is not reading the name correctly. It's Fogbugz. One word.

[deleted]

Re: Why Fogbugz lost to Jira

#248

Post by mangeletti »

julianz wrote: post #199
mangeletti wrote: post #189

What about the name? He could have potentially left out the most important mistake Spolsky ever made, which is to name a product Fog Buzz. He might as well have named it Rain Smelt, or Lamp Shade. It sounds terrific once you use and like the product, but it doesn't sound remnisent of any kind of successful brand ever. Even the use of 2 words is a departure from the norm. Most of the big brands have 1-word names, and…

Possibly your most important mistake is not reading the name correctly. It's Fogbugz. One word.

Potatoemuffintrain. See what I did there. 3 words do not become 1 word, simply because the proper spaces are omitted.

I will say though, for many years I have thought the company was called Fog Buzz, (not Bugz).

Re: Why Fogbugz lost to Jira

#249

Post by mixmastamyk »

rajksarkar wrote: post #129
mixmastamyk wrote: post #17

On the other hand, I wish bitbucket were more popular compared to github. It doesn't seem like they invest much into bitbucket, as some silly issues have persisted for years. Have they given up?

Nor true - we have been investing quite a lot on Bitbucket. Check out our most recent blog post: http://blog.bitbucket.org/2015/09/22/1-in-3-fortune-500-comp...

New features are good, but so is fixing existing ones.

Many of the problems I had were trying to get readme.rst to work on bitbucket, readthedocs, and pypi. You all use different syntax to markup syntax highlighting! Even though you all use python! To my knowledge that hasn't been fixed, but not entirely sure because I gave up on it years ago.

Here's an important one for hg:

https://bitbucket.org/site/master/issues/6705/cant-create-pu...

Re: Why Fogbugz lost to Jira

#250

Post by perrylaj »

joncooper wrote: post #243
__david__ wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trello doesn't really seem like a bug tracker. I haven't used it though—maybe I'm just missing something?

Agreed. I kind of don't get Trello. Always thought of it as kind of a lightweight "stack of cards" analogue best used for simple high-level planning along the lines of a Kanban board. Is that how people use it?

We used it recently as a kanbanish/scrumish board for a recent development cycle and it worked out pretty well. We had separate boards for each sprint, and a backlog board that contained some broad-swipe categories. It would definitely be nice if it had better integrations with fogbugz (which our team also uses) or other bug tracking platforms, but I imagine it would be challenging to do that and maintain its extreme ease of use/simplicity.
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