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Free Lossless Image Format

flif.info

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Re: Free Lossless Image Format

#21
post #6

This is really interesting! There seems to be some additional technical information here: https://boards.openpandora.org/topic/18485-free-lossless-ima... - for interlacing it uses a generalization of PNG's Adam7; unlike PNG, the geometry of the 2D interlacing is exploited heavily to get better pixel estimation, which means the overhead of interlacing is small (vs simple scanline encoding, which has the benefit of loc…

Great, thanks. It seems there is no technical description available anywhere beyond what you quoted. They haven't written it up, and I couldn't even find comments in the source providing details. That's too bad, but he (I assume that's Jon Sneyers) does say he hopes to write it up later.

Also, comments in that thread on speed [1]:

     In terms of encode/decode speed: both are slow and not very optimized
     at the moment (no assembler code etc, just C++ code). A median file
     took 3 seconds to encode (1 second for a p25 file, 6 seconds for a p75
     file), which is slower than most other algorithms: WebP took slightly
     less than a second for a median file (0.5s for p25, 2s for p75), PNG
     and JPEG2000 took about half a second. It's not that bad though: BPG
     took 9 seconds on a median file (2.5s for p25, 25s for p75), and
     brute-force pngcrushing took something like 15 seconds on a median
     file (6s for p25, over 30s for p75), so at least it's already better
     than that.

     Decode speed to restore the full lossless image and write it as a png
     is not so good: about 0.75s for a median file, 0.25s for a p25 file,
     1.5s for a p75 file. That's roughly 3 to 5 times slower than the other
     algorithms. However, decoding a partial (lossy) file is much faster
     than decoding everything, so in a progressive decoding scenario, the
     difference would not be huge.
[1]: https://boards.openpandora.org/topic/18485-free-lossless-ima...

Re: Free Lossless Image Format

#22
post #11

I couldn't see any information on speed performances. There is certainly a price to pay for these impressive results. It could be the compression time. I hope not the uncompressing time.

I am not relating to this project, but I am actually in the middle of the development of a 3d image retrieval server and this very interesting to my work right now.

I will compare this using lodepng as a baseline and hope to report soon.

Re: Free Lossless Image Format

#23
This is really interesting. One of the most interesting parts is the progressive decoding/responsive images. http://flif.info/example.php (go to the bottom of the page).

Basically, the last example shows that, if you want a scaled version of the image, you can simply stop decompressing. No need for multiple image files. Just create one with very high quality and decompress until you get the quality you want and scale it down with html.

edit: more info on the responsive side of FLIF: http://flif.info/responsive.php

Re: Free Lossless Image Format

#24

Where are the images to compare? Bellard has a very neat demonstration on his page http://xooyoozoo.github.io/yolo-octo-bugfixes/#nymph&jpg=s&b... BTW, credit to the flif people for linking competitor formats bpg and webP

Well given that they're all lossless formats, the image should appear identical with any of the codecs, with only the file size (and encoding style) being different. More practically, since browsers won't have an flif decoder there isn't an easy way to embed the images online without reencoding them in a different format, which would rather defeat the purpose of putting up sample images.

Oh! Derp! I guess I am used to marketing-level abuses of language.

>More practically, since browsers won't have an flif decoder there isn't an easy way to embed the images online without reencoding them in a different format, which would rather defeat the purpose of putting up sample images.

Did you follow the link I posted? I think Bellard put together a pretty nifty demo. Note: Bellard credits xiph.org as the originator of the demo page. http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/daala/update1-tool2b.s...

Re: Free Lossless Image Format

#25

Sounds almost too good to be true... any major downside, other than current lack of support?

Because it is GPL3, it won't be supported by Google on Android, by Apple probably anywhere, or by Microsoft anywhere. In other words, it's a lovely idea, but due to a poor choice of license, it won't get any adoption. C.f. Ogg Vorbis, where the license for the specification is public domain, and the license for the libraries are BSD-like. To quote FSF: Some libraries implement free standards that are competing agains…

Agree – using GPL rather than LGPL or BSD in the reference implementation will prevent this from being widely adopted.

UPDATE: See lt's helpful comment above.

Re: Free Lossless Image Format

#26
post #15

Where are the images to compare? Bellard has a very neat demonstration on his page http://xooyoozoo.github.io/yolo-octo-bugfixes/#nymph&jpg=s&b... BTW, credit to the flif people for linking competitor formats bpg and webP

It's lossless. They look just like the originals.

Thanks. I had a derp moment. I guess I wasn't prepared to believe that "lossless" really meant lossless.

Re: Free Lossless Image Format

#27

Sounds almost too good to be true... any major downside, other than current lack of support?

Because it is GPL3, it won't be supported by Google on Android, by Apple probably anywhere, or by Microsoft anywhere. In other words, it's a lovely idea, but due to a poor choice of license, it won't get any adoption. C.f. Ogg Vorbis, where the license for the specification is public domain, and the license for the libraries are BSD-like. To quote FSF: Some libraries implement free standards that are competing agains…

That's only the implementation, not the image format itself. Unless I am mistaking, you can't apply a software license like GPL to an image format, just patent it.

Is that correct?

Re: Free Lossless Image Format

#28
post #11

I couldn't see any information on speed performances. There is certainly a price to pay for these impressive results. It could be the compression time. I hope not the uncompressing time.

I'm guessing that they're not releasing the numbers on that yet until the format is finalized. It's likely not gone through any serious optimizations yet.

Re: Free Lossless Image Format

#30
post #20

The 'only download as much of the file as you need' way of managing detail levels is brilliant.

Totally. I really recommend watching the video under the "Progressive and lossless" heading. With just 20% of the file downloaded the image quality was already subjectively quite good. I didn't even know progressive loading within a single file was a thing, but it's a neat trick.
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