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The Case of Richard Glossip

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Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#171

Post by wtbob »

afandian wrote: post #155
justin_vanw wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two issues here that most commentary about this case seems to be happy to conflate: - Is he guilty - Should he be executed These are independent questions. One is a question of fact, and there seems to be almost no credible reason to doubt his guilt. The other is a question of ethics and policy. As for your argument on why the death penalty is barbaric, it is not a valid argument. Reductio ad absurdum, your…

You can't give someone their life back. Nearly any other punishment can be stopped.

You're right that you can't get someone his life back: you can't give back someone the empty years he spent in prison; you can't remove the pain and agony of years removed from polite society; you can't remove the cruelty and abuse he experienced from other prisoners.

Punishment's unpleasant (that's its nature); death and imprisonment are unpleasant.

And yet, there are crimes which deserve death. Not to execute vicious murderers, rapists & traitors is a profound miscarriage of justice.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#172

Post by slazaro »

Joeri wrote: post #156
justin_vanw wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two issues here that most commentary about this case seems to be happy to conflate: - Is he guilty - Should he be executed These are independent questions. One is a question of fact, and there seems to be almost no credible reason to doubt his guilt. The other is a question of ethics and policy. As for your argument on why the death penalty is barbaric, it is not a valid argument. Reductio ad absurdum, your…

The thing that makes capital punishment barbaric is that it's the equivalent of cutting off a thief's hand. It's a naked form of punishment, that seeks only to punish, not to repair or restitute, and which causes irreversible and grave damage. There is a simple alternative here for the truly guilty: life imprisonment and forced restitution (letting someone work to pay off their debt to society). I can only see two re…

> cost cutting (avoiding the expense of imprisonment)

I remember reading that the opposite is actually true. All the cost of trials, retrials, etc. is apparently more than housing the inmate for life.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#173

Post by omginternets »

verbin217 wrote: post #40
johnnyg wrote: post #15

RE: How people are and the death penalty The other day I was driving down the road and thinking about how people are. It was 33 years coming but here's what hit me: people do what they want, even in the face of devastating consequences. See that long line outside any burger joint? See the stats on the amount of hard drugs guaranteed to destroy your world we consume? See that person cheating? See that DA wanting a win…

"If you walk into a school, start shooting and are captured alive - I think you just forfeited any claim on life or potential rehabilitation." Unfortunately most of the people who do this are children. They're usually in situations people would rather ignore. They're desperate. They want attention and they get it at some price that's ultimately... above market.

>Unfortunately most of the people who do this are children.

eric_the_read's comment notwithstanding, people subjected to extreme circumstances in their childhood years are less likely to be rehabilitated, not more.

The argument is that someone willing to shoot up a school for attention is beyond rehabilitation. His age is irrelevant to someone making that claim, and possibly argues in his favor.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#174

Post by omginternets »

tajen wrote: post #141
rhizome wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminal sentences have their own flavor of inflation that seems rarely studied.

* in USA. The average jail time in France is less than 2 years. French people are often surprised of the length of the penalties in countries which seem similarly western, such as Luxembourg.

Oh boy... I would not use France as a counter-example.

Jail time is low in France because our jails are full. Any sentence below two years is automatically deferred to probation, which means that a large number of crimes are de facto not punished.

A quick google search will reveal a disturbing trend of violent crimes that don't result in jail time for this reason.

France has the opposite problem, and it's no better.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#175

Post by verbin217 »

omginternets wrote: post #173
verbin217 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you walk into a school, start shooting and are captured alive - I think you just forfeited any claim on life or potential rehabilitation." Unfortunately most of the people who do this are children. They're usually in situations people would rather ignore. They're desperate. They want attention and they get it at some price that's ultimately... above market.

>Unfortunately most of the people who do this are children. eric_the_read's comment notwithstanding, people subjected to extreme circumstances in their childhood years are less likely to be rehabilitated, not more. The argument is that someone willing to shoot up a school for attention is beyond rehabilitation. His age is irrelevant to someone making that claim, and possibly argues in his favor.

The attention we're talking about here isn't narcissistic supply. It's basic interpersonal human concern. Shooting up a school because you're being systematically starved of your basic human needs isn't nearly as bad as you just made is sound. Otherwise I never contended with anything else you said. I do think they deserve a chance at rehabilitation but also that they're less likely to attain it.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#176

Post by acqq »

Arainach wrote: post #12

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/17/us/richard-glossip-executi... gives more details about how the case has proceeded thus far. From the description of the "evidence", this seems like a clear cut failure of the justice system.

See also:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/09/2...

"When the order delaying the execution for two weeks came down, Glossip was so close to his scheduled execution time that he had already been served his final meal (which included chicken-fried steak, mashed potatoes, fish and chips and a strawberry malt).

In addition to their requests to the Oklahoma court, Glossip’s attorneys had also asked Gov. Mary Fallin (R) to stay the execution, arguing that the lethal injection should be halted due to new evidence. However, Fallin denied these requests, and she said her office determined that none of the evidence presented by Glossip’s attorneys changed her mind.

“After carefully reviewing the facts of this case multiple times, I see no reason to cast doubt on the guilty verdict reached by the jury or to delay Glossip’s sentence of death,” she said in a statement earlier this month. Fallin also said her office would respect the appeals court’s decision."

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#177

Post by drabiega »

wtbob wrote: post #171
afandian wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't give someone their life back. Nearly any other punishment can be stopped.

You're right that you can't get someone his life back: you can't give back someone the empty years he spent in prison; you can't remove the pain and agony of years removed from polite society; you can't remove the cruelty and abuse he experienced from other prisoners. Punishment's unpleasant (that's its nature); death and imprisonment are unpleasant. And yet, there are crimes which deserve death. Not to execute vicio…

Well, you can't just execute those people. You either execute no one or you execute some innocent people along with the 'deserving'.

You think it is more just to kill the innocent than simple imprison the 'deserving' for life?

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#178

Post by VLM »

tsotha wrote: post #91
mistermann wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think the only thing that could ever change it is if some vigilante with nothing to lose started bringing the same flavor of extreme justice to the doorsteps of the people passing it out - fear of potential ramifications will very quickly change behavior.

That would cause change, but in the opposite direction. People would rally around judges and prosecutors and you'd see fewer people questioning the status quo. It would be a disaster.

Both proposals have been purely theoretical. I can provide three practical historical examples of turning it up to 11:

1) abortion clinic bombing changed nothing; if anything it helped raise funds (you'd almost think they were false flag operations? Is there anything that helped the pro choice cause more than the bombings?)

2) the War on drugs has ruined uncountable lives, certainly far more than drugs have ruined, none the less neither the fear of drugs or the more realistic fear of the war on drugs keeps people sober, business has always been booming.

3) the war on black men has gotten about 1/3 of them involved in the criminal justice system. The result? None, no change. They haven't become refugees, their culture has changed as little as possible under the circumstances, no serious rebellion...

In those three examples taking normal level actions and turning them up to 11 has either been utterly ineffective or counterproductive. I'd have to say the tsotha theoretical model fits observed reality better, although I admit further research could find observations overturning that... although I don't expect it.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#179

Post by acqq »

The death penalty:

Of the 49 European countries, only 1 (Belarus) still has the death penalty and executes people.

Last time a civilian executed in Mexico: 1937, Canada: 1962, UK: 1977, Russia: 1999

In 2014, only these countries executed more people per million than the US: Equatorial Guinea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Palestine, China, Singapore, Belarus, Taiwan, Afghanistan and Egypt And North Korea N/A.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country

Internationally seen as against the universal human rights:

1948: The United Nations adopted without dissent the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR). The Declaration proclaims the right of every individual to protection from deprivation of life. It states that no one shall be subjected to cruel or degrading punishment. The death penalty violates both of these fundamental rights.

2005: The UNCHR approved Human Rights Resolution 2005/59 on the question of the death penalty, which called for all states that still maintain the death penalty to abolish the death penalty completely and, in the meantime, to establish a moratorium on executions.

2007: The UN General Assembly (UNGA) approved Resolution 62/149 which called for all states that still maintain the death penalty to establish a moratorium on executions with a view to abolishing the death penalty.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/inte...

2015, the current year: 20 persons executed in the US

At least 278 persons executed in the US just since the last UNGA Resolution.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execution-list-2015

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#180

Post by mistermann »

tsotha wrote: post #91
mistermann wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think the only thing that could ever change it is if some vigilante with nothing to lose started bringing the same flavor of extreme justice to the doorsteps of the people passing it out - fear of potential ramifications will very quickly change behavior.

That would cause change, but in the opposite direction. People would rally around judges and prosecutors and you'd see fewer people questioning the status quo. It would be a disaster.

It could definitely be a disaster if it was indiscriminate and no reason was communicated.
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