One solution to the problem of user flow A vs user flow B is to dispense the cash and return the card simultaneously and together. The "together" part is admittedly difficult to engineer but perhaps the card slot could be placed just above the cash dispenser, so both are in your line of sight.
Losing a credit card due to automatic user behavior
41–50 of 62 posts
Re: Losing a credit card due to automatic user behavior
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
Usually such German cards use the Visa/Mastercard foreign exchange rate for ATM transactions (no extra fee) and POS transactions (plus currency conversion fee, but no additional fee for using abroad).
In Sweden (and possible in other countries) the ATMs let you choose whether you want to let the ATM (or bank that the ATM belongs to) do the conversion from Euro to Swedish Kronor or your own bank. If you pick the latter option, your bank might charge you for the conversion, I never had the case that the Swedish bank charged for it.
This is known as "dynamic currency conversion" and gives you a much worse deal than letting them charge you in a foreign currency (even when your bank has high fees). The way they do it is by offering a really bad exchange rate. In fact, the Swedish bank charges you for that, it's just hidden in the exchange rate.
Re: Losing a credit card due to automatic user behavior
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
It surprises me that a flattened out workflow like http://i.ytimg.com/vi/luu3_y2MWGQ/maxresdefault.jpg isn't widely used. There's a very strong 'default' use of an ATM, and the conventional workflow does not optimize for it at all.
I guess a machine like an ATM has be usable by 100% of the population, including people who get easily confused by more than two options/buttons, so usability has to be sacrificed for simplicity to a certain degree.
My mother is like this. She is used to card-then-cash flow. Once she was using ATM abroad with me helping her (because it's in english). The moment card came out she turned to me with frantic face asking "where's the money?!?". She generally distrusts ATMs.
I once lost my card due to cash-then-card flow. And once left cash in card-then-cash machine. Bank did returned it though.
Re: Losing a credit card due to automatic user behavior
#44One solution to the problem of user flow A vs user flow B is to dispense the cash and return the card simultaneously and together . The "together" part is admittedly difficult to engineer but perhaps the card slot could be placed just above the cash dispenser, so both are in your line of sight.
Good idea! If both the money and the card could be taken in the same movement, that would make it very convenient.
Re: Losing a credit card due to automatic user behavior
#45Bank of America switched years ago to "Insert card, remove card, enter PIN, take money, take receipt." Capturing invalid cards, while often done with early ATMs, turns out not to be all that useful as a fraud prevention measure. It's not required by the current PCI standard for ATMs.[1] There's also an attack on ATMs called the "Lebanese Loop"[2] which requires that the ATM try to retain a card. So there's a security…
How would that work with modern chip-based cards? As far as I know, you cannot complete the payment at all if the chip is not available.
Perhaps Lebanese loop could be used in relay attacks?
Re: Losing a credit card due to automatic user behavior
#46In terms of ATM struggles for foreign visitors, Brazil really holds the record. The workflow requires you to insert your card twice (at least for Banco do Brasil). It goes like this:
Insert card -> Take card (no PIN entered yet) -> Choose account & amount -> Enter PIN -> Insert card again -> Take card -> Take cash
Also, most banks in Brazil have ATMs that DON'T give cash right beside ATMs that DO give cash. The ones that don't give cash are meant for deposits, balances, payments, and transfers, but the GUI is otherwise identical, i.e., they display a cash withdrawal button even though they aren't equipped for cash! "If you then proceed with a cash withdrawal, the machine will hold onto your card for several minutes while making dispensing noises and finally return your card without giving any cash or receipt."[1]
[1] http://brazilsense.com/index.php?title=Bank_cards_and_ATMs#L...
Re: Losing a credit card due to automatic user behavior
#47The author is mistaken about people always waiting for their money from an ATM. I've seen people take their card and leave the machine before the money comes out. I'm pretty sure I've done it myself at least once, when I was thinking about something else.
But generally the negative effect will be lower: You'll lose your money if there are people coming after you that are dishonest enough to take the money only. Otherwise it'll get pulled back in. You'll still have your card.
I'm not sure I agree. I'd much rather lose a card than money.
Re: Losing a credit card due to automatic user behavior
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
In Sweden (and possible in other countries) the ATMs let you choose whether you want to let the ATM (or bank that the ATM belongs to) do the conversion from Euro to Swedish Kronor or your own bank. If you pick the latter option, your bank might charge you for the conversion, I never had the case that the Swedish bank charged for it.
This is known as "dynamic currency conversion" and gives you a much worse deal than letting them charge you in a foreign currency (even when your bank has high fees). The way they do it is by offering a really bad exchange rate. In fact, the Swedish bank charges you for that, it's just hidden in the exchange rate.
Oh really? I never bothered to check the exchange rate. Good to know, I'll let my German bank do the conversion from now on!
Re: Losing a credit card due to automatic user behavior
#49As far as I can tell France universally uses "Flow A" (get your card back first, then your cash). When I started using ATMs, in the late 80s, I remember that "Flow A" and "Flow B" were about equally common, then in a relatively short span of time all the banks switched to A. It surprises me, reading about it now, that it could be different in any other part of the world. That Flow A is the correct solution is not obv…
It surprises me that a flattened out workflow like http://i.ytimg.com/vi/luu3_y2MWGQ/maxresdefault.jpg isn't widely used. There's a very strong 'default' use of an ATM, and the conventional workflow does not optimize for it at all.
My bank switched to this layout recently, and it took me a good minute to work out what was going on, and how I should go about getting my money out. It might not have been so bad if I had just read the screen though, but I was trying to find the normal menus.
Re: Losing a credit card due to automatic user behavior
#50Bank of America switched years ago to "Insert card, remove card, enter PIN, take money, take receipt." Capturing invalid cards, while often done with early ATMs, turns out not to be all that useful as a fraud prevention measure. It's not required by the current PCI standard for ATMs.[1] There's also an attack on ATMs called the "Lebanese Loop"[2] which requires that the ATM try to retain a card. So there's a security…
How would that work with modern chip-based cards? As far as I know, you cannot complete the payment at all if the chip is not available.
When using a Chip+PIN card in the US recently, I had to insert, remove, insert again, enter PIN, take card, take cash.
It took two of us two ATMs and about 15mins to figure it out ;)