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For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

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Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#81
post #20
post #7

Here's the thing I don't understand -- if the main attraction (from a customer point of view) is the app (with everything that comes with it), why haven't the cab companies got in on the same game? Either put out their own app to hail rides (and maybe give their cabs a more luxury look to them), or sign up as Uber/Lyft drivers themselves? Or is there something I'm missing?

in sf, specifically, the taxi companies are utter shit (and evil, to boot). I badly broke my leg and, because I lived too far from public transportation to crutch over, had to take taxis to work 4-5 times a week, often both ways. No taxi company in sf will reliably come, even if you make it clear that you are going to take a cab at least 4 days a week for most of the next year. Instead, even when you are in the middl…

This is why I can't be bothered to get worked up in favor of taxi drivers. They made their bed, now they must lie in it.

By law, I still have to use a taxi when returning from the airport here in Seattle (as opposed to Uber). I have had perhaps 2-3 positive experiences, some neutral ones, and many bad experiences with rude taxi drivers on their phones who drove erratically and tried to scam me with overlong routes.

And up until Uber and others arrived, they would either try to make me feel like shit for paying with a card, lie to me about it not working, or they would use carbon paper card readers circa 1985. Uber forced them to modernize in that respect, at least.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#82
post #29

Sad story but every economic change for the better creates winners and losers. You can't regulate away loss without regulating away improvement. He is better off forgetting the medallion and finding work somewhere else to repay the loan. He should be able to make a few dollars renting the medallion in the meantime. As for the government stepping in - live by the fake government market, die by the fake government mark…

>Sad story but every economic change for the better creates winners and losers. You can't regulate away loss without regulating away improvement. The government isn't a third party here. Compensating him isn't just handing him money for a bad investment. It's compensating him for the fact that SF scammed him out of a quarter million dollars. The reason why the government should have to compensate here isn't because h…

No, this guy made a bad decision despite plenty of available evidence. Uber started in San Francisco in 2009. By 2012 it had expanded internationally, so it couldn't be regarded as a fly-by-night operation. Yet he still chose to dump a quarter million dollars into a medallion? Well, sorry. He chose poorly.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#83
post #9

This is an especially poignant story, and it's hard to not feel bad for this driver. On the other hand, people face investment risk all the time, i.e. when franchising a restaurant. When Chipotle or whoever comes in and devours the fast food market, I wonder if the local struggling burger franchisee asks the city for help? I can't speak on behalf of other cities, but anyone who has lived in SF pre-Uber has no shortag…

“I thought … there should be proper rules and regulations,” Batth says. “We have a very corrupt society back in India. With money, anything gets done. I never thought it would be the same in this country.”

I found quite a bit of irony in this quote, The taxi industry has historically been very corrupt. Bribes to city officials to artificially keep the prices for medallions going up (not adding new ones) and to prevent competition are common. I do feel bad for this driver but at some point if you're paying $250k for a chunk of metal you have to stop and think that what you're really paying for is a monopoly in performing a specific action I.E picking up passengers that hail you and this is not a guarantee that that business continue to be worth what it was.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic apple needs to give me back my $600 for my iPhone3GS He made a bet that value would stay He was wrong Sucks Sad? sure. But not anyone's fault

Nope. By issuing a medallion, the city grants the right to participate with known rules of competition in a specific market and it also has the obligation to protect the licensee from unfair competition. The cities have failed to comply with their duty and so, in my opinion, owe damages to the holders.

It's not a right, it's a privilege. And the competition is in no way unfair, the only thing that makes it "unfair" is that they did not pay to the city for the privilege. There's nothing "fair" in being forced to pay exorbitant sums to the city in order to do business. I could get it if the price was commensurate with the service one gets from the city - after all, roads must be maintained, cops and street cleaners must be paid, street lights must be fixed, etc. - but 250K goes way beyond that and is clearly just made to extract money "because we can" and to limit the access to the market.

If the city has an unfair practice of restricting business and charging for the privilege of doing something that should be a basic right available for everyone, and somebody relied on that unfair practice to extract rent, and it stopped working, I don't see how one has a claim for damages anymore than Mafia racketeer can claim for damages when a racket victim refuses to pay protection money, or one victim could claim damages because the other victim does not pay anymore and thus has "unfair advantage".

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#85
post #9

This is an especially poignant story, and it's hard to not feel bad for this driver. On the other hand, people face investment risk all the time, i.e. when franchising a restaurant. When Chipotle or whoever comes in and devours the fast food market, I wonder if the local struggling burger franchisee asks the city for help? I can't speak on behalf of other cities, but anyone who has lived in SF pre-Uber has no shortag…

It's not quite the whole story. Medallions used to be almost free, which is why the waitlist was 10 years. They started charging 250k, but you can give them back for 200k. From the MTA site: By capping the sale price of medallions, the MTA insulates medallion holders from market fluctuations, either up or down. When drivers want to resell, the price is what they paid, minus a 5 percent transfer fee. The agency said i…

> Medallions used to be almost free, which is why the waitlist was 10 years.

I imagine the waitlist was 10 years not because medallions were cheap, but because there wasn't enough of them issued to satisfy the demand.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#86
post #63
post #59

It's hard to feel bad for people who chose to invest in rigged markets. Their frustration should remain squarly with local representation. Show me the public vote that decided to implement medallions. It's like voting to regulate the number of restaurants in a given city and leaving half that market to mcdonalds. (For safety of course) People would laugh at not leaving that up to supply and demand. The only reason it…

Most, if not all, of the people holding the medallions had nothing to do with their institution or even maintenance as a monopoly. They are simply entrepreneurs playing an existing game. A game whose rules have drastically changed.

That's the risk in the entrepreneurship. And that's exactly why people push for less restrictive regulations - to reduce this risk coming from regulatory change. Of course you never can take the risk of change out of entrepreneurship, but at least you can reduce the risk from regulatory challenges and changes. What seems to be happening instead is simultaneously arguing for more regulation and to insulate people from the effects of change in the regulation - which will only breed more regulation, more people hurt by it and demand for even more regulation to compensate for it. The only way out of this vicious circle of regulation to fix regulation is to minimize the regulation to the minimum necessary to ensure basic equal access to the market, basic contract enforcement, etc. and then let the market participants figure it out. That way at least the regulatory component of the risks is greatly reduced. If you are not forced to pay $250k for the privilege to do business, there's no way this investment would go bust.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#87
post #7

Here's the thing I don't understand -- if the main attraction (from a customer point of view) is the app (with everything that comes with it), why haven't the cab companies got in on the same game? Either put out their own app to hail rides (and maybe give their cabs a more luxury look to them), or sign up as Uber/Lyft drivers themselves? Or is there something I'm missing?

Some cab companies do have their own apps, or sign up with national "e-hail" app vendors. In my experience in a number of US cities, these apps get terrible reviews in the App Store/Google Play because they're borderline unusable. They often don't have all the features of Uber and Lyft, like letting you track the cab while it's on its way to you or even handling payment through the app, and they're often poorly desig…

> In my experience in a number of US cities, these apps get terrible reviews in the App Store/Google Play because they're borderline unusable.

Looks like an opening for some very profitable startup :)

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#88
post #8
post #7

Here's the thing I don't understand -- if the main attraction (from a customer point of view) is the app (with everything that comes with it), why haven't the cab companies got in on the same game? Either put out their own app to hail rides (and maybe give their cabs a more luxury look to them), or sign up as Uber/Lyft drivers themselves? Or is there something I'm missing?

They have: https://gocurb.com They've been doing it for a while -- this app used to be Taxi Magic. It's slower to respond than Uber, and more expensive.

For what it worth, I used that a number of times when I was in Portland, and it worked just fine for me. Can't compare the prices, having no basis to compare with, but I don't remember the prices being outrageous. In general, if Uber drags the taxi industry kicking and screaming into 21st century, it's a win-win.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#89
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget that the "innovator" is operating illegally in many jurisdictions and is actively trying to buy protection (i.e., lobbying).

In Toronto, it feels like the entire public is on Uber's side. But that could be good PR as well, since I can only poll my circle of friend-users.

A lot of my friends agree that Uber is a pretty bad company, but they are still tons better than Taxis.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#90
post #29

Sad story but every economic change for the better creates winners and losers. You can't regulate away loss without regulating away improvement. He is better off forgetting the medallion and finding work somewhere else to repay the loan. He should be able to make a few dollars renting the medallion in the meantime. As for the government stepping in - live by the fake government market, die by the fake government mark…

>Sad story but every economic change for the better creates winners and losers. You can't regulate away loss without regulating away improvement. The government isn't a third party here. Compensating him isn't just handing him money for a bad investment. It's compensating him for the fact that SF scammed him out of a quarter million dollars. The reason why the government should have to compensate here isn't because h…

Cabs might not have been regulated for the cab drivers benefit, but benefit they did. This guy saved for years to get the benefits of the medallion system.

My point is that if you rely on the government to create your business, don't cry when the government takes it away.

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