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For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

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Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#31

Post by rhino369 »

dmitrygr wrote: post #10
kilroy123 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Local governments could pay money to buy them back? It does seem unfair to charge such high amounts of money for something now worthless.

By that logic apple needs to give me back my $600 for my iPhone3GS He made a bet that value would stay He was wrong Sucks Sad? sure. But not anyone's fault

SF sold them the medallions with the promise that SF is going to limit the number of cabs and now it isn't doing that. That is different from Apple selling you a piece of electronics with a single year warranty and no promise that it's going to be useful in the future.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#32

Post by panorama »

lolwutf wrote: post #25
panorama wrote: post #9

This is an especially poignant story, and it's hard to not feel bad for this driver. On the other hand, people face investment risk all the time, i.e. when franchising a restaurant. When Chipotle or whoever comes in and devours the fast food market, I wonder if the local struggling burger franchisee asks the city for help? I can't speak on behalf of other cities, but anyone who has lived in SF pre-Uber has no shortag…

Comparing a human being to a local burger franchisee is a pretty awful analogy.

I was referring to a franchisee as a human being. A franchise is a business.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#33

Post by austenallred »

unKlever wrote: post #16
austenallred wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think when you say "the app" you really mean "the convenience of not having to hail a cab" specifically. The app is a game changer, but not for that reason. Not having to hail is nice, but that's only the tip of the iceberg. For example, a couple of days ago I took an Uber. The driver that picked me up was a student. I asked him why he was driving, and he said, "Oh, well I came [to this city] to hang out with my fr…

I think the parent was talking about supply side. I think you are totally correct but, I find myself not satisfied with the answer. All legitimate cab companies should puf money into hiring a company to build a sinple app to connect them to legal taxis. You pay, you get on the app. Tagline, "as convenient as uber, only legal". It would be a hell of a lot cheaper than funding lawyers and lobbyists like they have been.

That's exactly the point though, it's the entire system that needs replacing. It's awfully hard to turn a ship around when it's as large as the taxi industry (with lobbies to boot).

Take one element of it - say the taxi companies said, "OK, you're now getting rated, and if you drop below 5 stars you lose your medallion." Drivers would lose their minds.

Imagine them saying, "Also, now your trips are going to cost 50% less" again, would not fly.

Or even, "You can use your own car, because that's way more efficient" (would never happen, because taxi drivers rent their cars for $40,000/month).

The taxi industry has done a hell of a lot to entrench itself and make itself irreplaceable, no matter how awful it is. In doing so, it has created a system completely resistant to change and innovation. The industry was ripe for someone to come along and replace it with a parallel system that was better and more efficient.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#34

Post by Kalium »

ericflo wrote: post #21
unKlever wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parent was talking about supply side. I think you are totally correct but, I find myself not satisfied with the answer. All legitimate cab companies should puf money into hiring a company to build a sinple app to connect them to legal taxis. You pay, you get on the app. Tagline, "as convenient as uber, only legal". It would be a hell of a lot cheaper than funding lawyers and lobbyists like they have been.

http://flywheel.com/ it's been around for quite a while and I remember seeing a ton of ads for them

The experience is terrible and cabbies still have all the perverse incentives that make people loathe them.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#35

Post by xtqctz »

r00fus wrote: post #17
matheweis wrote: post #4

This isn't unique to San Francisco, the entire industry is in a free fall nationwide... It is incredible to watch the effects of a little innovation and (effectively) deregulation. Chicaco: "Once a sure bet, taxi medallions becoming unsellable" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9564478 http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/05/17/taxi-medallion... New York: "New York City Taxi Medallion Prices Keep Falling" https…

Don't forget that the "innovator" is operating illegally in many jurisdictions and is actively trying to buy protection (i.e., lobbying).

read: don't forget that innovation has been made illegal due to pressure by certain cartels and outsiders must form political alliances to circumvent them.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#36

Post by CamperBob2 »

r00fus wrote: post #17
matheweis wrote: post #4

This isn't unique to San Francisco, the entire industry is in a free fall nationwide... It is incredible to watch the effects of a little innovation and (effectively) deregulation. Chicaco: "Once a sure bet, taxi medallions becoming unsellable" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9564478 http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/05/17/taxi-medallion... New York: "New York City Taxi Medallion Prices Keep Falling" https…

Don't forget that the "innovator" is operating illegally in many jurisdictions and is actively trying to buy protection (i.e., lobbying).

Gee. I'm sure that's not how the incumbent system was created in the first place, or anything.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#37

Post by Multiplayer »

panorama wrote: post #9

This is an especially poignant story, and it's hard to not feel bad for this driver. On the other hand, people face investment risk all the time, i.e. when franchising a restaurant. When Chipotle or whoever comes in and devours the fast food market, I wonder if the local struggling burger franchisee asks the city for help? I can't speak on behalf of other cities, but anyone who has lived in SF pre-Uber has no shortag…

It's not quite the whole story. Medallions used to be almost free, which is why the waitlist was 10 years. They started charging 250k, but you can give them back for 200k.

From the MTA site: By capping the sale price of medallions, the MTA insulates medallion holders from market fluctuations, either up or down. When drivers want to resell, the price is what they paid, minus a 5 percent transfer fee. The agency said it is unlikely to cut the price. For those cabbies who paid nearly nothing for their medallions, the new sales system is an even better deal; they receive $200,000 when they surrender it for resale."

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#38

Post by vas1 »

derekp7 wrote: post #7

Here's the thing I don't understand -- if the main attraction (from a customer point of view) is the app (with everything that comes with it), why haven't the cab companies got in on the same game? Either put out their own app to hail rides (and maybe give their cabs a more luxury look to them), or sign up as Uber/Lyft drivers themselves? Or is there something I'm missing?

Here in Toronto, Uber is much cheaper then a cab and only reaches cab prices when surge pricing kicks in: http://www.moneysense.ca/spend/uber-vs-taxi-the-best-way-to-...

So the incentive isn't only the app, its also prices. There is a lot of lobbying being done here on the part of Uber and the cab companies have already staged a few demonstrations. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#39

Post by qq66 »

panorama wrote: post #9

This is an especially poignant story, and it's hard to not feel bad for this driver. On the other hand, people face investment risk all the time, i.e. when franchising a restaurant. When Chipotle or whoever comes in and devours the fast food market, I wonder if the local struggling burger franchisee asks the city for help? I can't speak on behalf of other cities, but anyone who has lived in SF pre-Uber has no shortag…

People face investment risk all the time, but medallions are a case of a city setting explicit expectations when selling the medallions and then changing the terms of the deal post facto. Chipotle devoured a huge chunk of the fast food market, but the city didn't collect money from McDonalds for a guarantee that Chipotle wouldn't be allowed to enter.

Notably, this is illegal by federal law for auto manufacturers and other franchisors: if you promise a 25-mile exclusivity radius and get a franchisee to build a dealership, you cannot renege on that without being liable for damages. Interestingly, it's auto manufacturers who lobbied for these laws, wanting to kickstart a dealership ecosystem and knowing that franchisees would not invest money in building and marketing dealerships if they did not have suitable protections. Taxi drivers are a form of franchisee, and they are asking for similar protections.

One possible solution is for the city to buy back all the extant medallions at some fixed price, do away with the system, and finance the purchase with an excise tax on all types of transportation going forward, whether rideshares, taxis, etc. You can imagine how Uber feels about that, and how they can mobilize their vast PR capabilities against such a concept.

Re: For San Francisco Cab Drivers, Once-Treasured Medallions Now a Burden

#40

Post by norikki »

x0x0 wrote: post #20
derekp7 wrote: post #7

Here's the thing I don't understand -- if the main attraction (from a customer point of view) is the app (with everything that comes with it), why haven't the cab companies got in on the same game? Either put out their own app to hail rides (and maybe give their cabs a more luxury look to them), or sign up as Uber/Lyft drivers themselves? Or is there something I'm missing?

in sf, specifically, the taxi companies are utter shit (and evil, to boot). I badly broke my leg and, because I lived too far from public transportation to crutch over, had to take taxis to work 4-5 times a week, often both ways. No taxi company in sf will reliably come, even if you make it clear that you are going to take a cab at least 4 days a week for most of the next year. Instead, even when you are in the middl…

I love the 'But Uber is illegal!' argument. A government protected industry is forced to face real competition after years of ignoring their customers needs. Boo Hoo.
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