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Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

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Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#21

Post by scott_s »

gabrielroth wrote: post #18
scott_s wrote: post #15

This is a terrible graph. It took me five minutes to figure out how everything is related. Data such as this is much more naturally plotted as an x-y scatter-plot. Thickness of the datapoints could indicate number of doctor visits. Instead, the graph eliminates the x-axis, but retains the space. Very strange choice.

I agree that it's unfamiliar, but once you've figured out how to read it, it strikingly demonstrates the degree to which the U.S. is an outlier.

My claim wasn't that it's unfamiliar - which it is - but that's it's terrible. What's striking is the data, not the visualization applied to that data. I think the effect would be just as dramatic with an x-y scatter plot, and it would have the benefit of being easier to read.

This graph also eliminates seeing if there is a correlation between money spent per individual and life expectancy. On a scatter plot, if there was a correlation, we would expect to see the data fall in some line. If a data point was outside of that line, then it would be obvious.

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#22

Post by dantheman »

scott_s wrote: post #19
lionhearted wrote: post #7

Some reasons American medicine is very expensive: 1. Health insurance, but not treatment, is fully tax deductible. So if you buy your own penicillin, it's with after tax money, but if your insurance company buys it, it's pre-tax money. That's one of the reasons that health insurance is so widespred in America even for routine medicine like antibiotics and checkups. That's a major contributing factor in why the admini…

Regarding point 4, what would prevent a drug company from claiming that, say, Aspirin could cure AIDS? I do not think that is a stretch, either. If companies can profit from selling pills to increase penis length, I see no reason why they wouldn't make other claims if they were legal. I do not trust in the market to correct unverified claims; many people want to believe in miracle cures, and will buy snake oil despit…

They trust their doctors. In the rest of the world there are not the restrictions on drugs that are found in the USA. Also, what about all the people that could be saved by a medicine that have nothing to lose if it doesn't work since they have no other options -- right now they SOL. The amount of people that die because they cannot receive medicines that may work is staggering and a great injustice.

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#23

Post by scott_s »

dantheman wrote: post #22
scott_s wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding point 4, what would prevent a drug company from claiming that, say, Aspirin could cure AIDS? I do not think that is a stretch, either. If companies can profit from selling pills to increase penis length, I see no reason why they wouldn't make other claims if they were legal. I do not trust in the market to correct unverified claims; many people want to believe in miracle cures, and will buy snake oil despit…

They trust their doctors. In the rest of the world there are not the restrictions on drugs that are found in the USA. Also, what about all the people that could be saved by a medicine that have nothing to lose if it doesn't work since they have no other options -- right now they SOL. The amount of people that die because they cannot receive medicines that may work is staggering and a great injustice.

Do you have data on the number of people who die because the FDA has not approved a drug that may save their life? Note that this is different from people who die because they can't afford treatment.

I would be more comfortable with point 4 if we once again banned prescription drug advertisements.

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#24

Post by joe_the_user »

lionhearted wrote: post #7

Some reasons American medicine is very expensive: 1. Health insurance, but not treatment, is fully tax deductible. So if you buy your own penicillin, it's with after tax money, but if your insurance company buys it, it's pre-tax money. That's one of the reasons that health insurance is so widespred in America even for routine medicine like antibiotics and checkups. That's a major contributing factor in why the admini…

1. The structure of an unstrained free-market medical system is well-suited for rent-seeking rackets. Doctors and hospitals tend to be monopolies. Even with competition, few are competent at choose between competitors, etc. This situation has historically been restrained by modest regulation and by the fact that most people entering health care are motivated by the desire to help others. These restraints are gone.

2. The current situation is neither "over regulation" nor "under regulation". It is mis-regulation. But all the regulation or lack-of regulation in the world won't really prevent a determined group of racketeers/rent-seekers aiming for their accustomed level of sales and profits through their monopoly position. There just aren't enough honest dollars in health care to incentivize the currrent system into being efficient. Making the existing system "work" is akin buying La Cosa Nostra spreadsheets and hoping this will turn it into an honest business. Reform at this juncture is like saying "can't you only restrain the growth in fraudulent loans just a bit". When the housing bubble was high, even the growth couldn't be stopped. Now, the decay can't be hidden.

3. It's not "The Doctors" or "the insurance companies" or "the hospitals" that are the problem but all of these and none these. There are indeed "good parts" and "bad parts" in the drug, hospital, doctoring and insurance industries. But the "bad parts" are far to too adaptable for efforts at restraining them piecemeal to work. From the chart in the article, you'd have to deduce the parasitic parts of US health care get at least twice the sales of the parts needed for a sane health care system and quite possibly four or five times that.

4. The point is NOT how we will correct the excesses of the current health care system. The question is when the growth of the current excesses will reach the point when they are truly unsustainable. The current "reform" wave seems aimed to enlisting the state primarily in the task of squeezing more money out of those who weren't paying into the racket (the uninsured). Well, once they've run of people to squeeze and health care cost go from 20% to 30% of GDP, there won't be any further place for the cancer to go but down. I'm guessing that's five to ten more years. Will our economy last that long? We'll see.

5. There are free market solutions that could work and single-payer solutions that could work. It's shame we won't see either kind of sanity for a while.

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#25

Post by russell »

gabrielroth wrote: post #17
lionhearted wrote: post #7

Some reasons American medicine is very expensive: 1. Health insurance, but not treatment, is fully tax deductible. So if you buy your own penicillin, it's with after tax money, but if your insurance company buys it, it's pre-tax money. That's one of the reasons that health insurance is so widespred in America even for routine medicine like antibiotics and checkups. That's a major contributing factor in why the admini…

I agree with your overall point that the U.S. medical system suffers from overregulation. We could (and should) allow more primary care to be performed by, for instance, qualified nurses, RNs, and nurse-practitioners. As you point out, the existing guilds hate this idea. But your first point needs some correction. Health insurance is only tax-deductible when it's paid for by your employer. [EDIT: Just noticed you men…

If you are self-employed you can deduct your insurance as a business expense, Schedule C.

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#26

Post by shawndrost »

lionhearted wrote: post #7

Some reasons American medicine is very expensive: 1. Health insurance, but not treatment, is fully tax deductible. So if you buy your own penicillin, it's with after tax money, but if your insurance company buys it, it's pre-tax money. That's one of the reasons that health insurance is so widespred in America even for routine medicine like antibiotics and checkups. That's a major contributing factor in why the admini…

Regarding point 3, do most other countries have more relaxed licensing requirements?

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#27

Post by walkon »

olefoo wrote: post #3

That's an awesome and persuasive infographic. In fact, it's main fault is that it's trying too hard to be persuasive. Putting the US above the legend detracts from the power of the raw data and strikes me as being unnecessarily editorial.

It's not that awesome when you remember that correlation does not necessarily equal causation.

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#28

Post by hs »

olefoo wrote: post #3

That's an awesome and persuasive infographic. In fact, it's main fault is that it's trying too hard to be persuasive. Putting the US above the legend detracts from the power of the raw data and strikes me as being unnecessarily editorial.

it's because the y axis is linear ... i don't sense any overdoing

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#29

Post by [deleted] »

scott_s wrote: post #19
lionhearted wrote: post #7

Some reasons American medicine is very expensive: 1. Health insurance, but not treatment, is fully tax deductible. So if you buy your own penicillin, it's with after tax money, but if your insurance company buys it, it's pre-tax money. That's one of the reasons that health insurance is so widespred in America even for routine medicine like antibiotics and checkups. That's a major contributing factor in why the admini…

Regarding point 4, what would prevent a drug company from claiming that, say, Aspirin could cure AIDS? I do not think that is a stretch, either. If companies can profit from selling pills to increase penis length, I see no reason why they wouldn't make other claims if they were legal. I do not trust in the market to correct unverified claims; many people want to believe in miracle cures, and will buy snake oil despit…

[deleted]

Re: Cost of Health Care By Country, as Compared to Life Expectancy

#30

Post by hs »

scott_s wrote: post #15

This is a terrible graph. It took me five minutes to figure out how everything is related. Data such as this is much more naturally plotted as an x-y scatter-plot. Thickness of the datapoints could indicate number of doctor visits. Instead, the graph eliminates the x-axis, but retains the space. Very strange choice.

the graph gives an important ratio that's hard to capture in scatter plot

age/cost (the slope)

also, how do you identify your datapoints in scatter-plot neatly?

to me this graph gives surprisingly rich information packed

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