Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says • Hacker News Board

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#31

Post by jonknee » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:07 PM UTC

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #16

jonknee wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should clearly win because they were sold a fraudulent product. If I sold you a gold watch that didn't turn out to be gold I don't just owe you the difference, I owe you back all the money and I go to jail. The good news for VW is that the cars aren't worthless, so they can buy them back and sell them. For people who want to keep their car there will probably also be a cash offer.

Yeah, but it's going to be a mess. The person who sold you the car, at the VW dealership, unknowingly misrepresented the product to you. As a consumer under US law you are entitled to certain remedies (such as: the retailer has to take the product back). Then the dealer, who is not, under US law, a "consumer" and is also not identical to Volkswagen itself, has to seek relief from VW for providing it with the bogus me…

It will definitely be a mess. There are already class action suits in progress and I'm sure many more on the way. There is some precedent for buybacks and they typically take depreciation into account, though this is a whole other level of scandal so the rules may be different.

Fiat Chrysler recently announced a buyback as part of a consent decree with the NHTSA:

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/fiat-chrysler-buy-back...

> As to how much money an owner might receive under the buy-back program, the consent order stated that FCA must "refund the purchase price paid by the first purchaser of the vehicle for purposes other than resale, less a reasonable allowance for depreciation, and not including the cost of modifications made to the vehicle after the first retail sale." To sweeten the deal, a 10 percent premium will be factored into the initial purchase price.

Not a bad deal actually and this was defect based, not fraud based. I think VW would be incredibly lucky to have such a settlement.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#32

Post by jwcooper » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:08 PM UTC

jakejake wrote: post #25

rygarfo wrote: post #14

What about the owners of VW cars that aren't affected by the consumption fraud. I would imagine the value of their cars will, regardless of the diesel engine, decrease with the saturation of people selling their cars or trying to return them. Is it possible for non-affected owners to be compensated as well for loss in market value as a result of the company's actions? Concerned Jetta owner here asking smarter people.

It'll be some firmware upgrade, the emissions will be fine but fuel economy will suffer by some minor amount. Then everyone will move on to the next tragedy. I don't really see a massive run on people trying to sell or return their car. I'm sure a few will to try to make a point, or perhaps to try to get a new car out of the deal. That's my prediction for the record!

Most people seem to be saying that it will be a simple software update to fix this issue, and everything will be fine other than some loss of power and fuel economy.

Isn't it possible that running these engines at the EPA recommended levels just isn't possible? That if they were to run like this 100% of the time, reliability, mpg, or power would be greatly reduced for various reasons?

There is a reason they took this huge risk to put in the cheat (but maybe management didn't think it was a big deal). It seems like there is too much risk involved in cheating for just minor fuel economy and power gains.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#33

Post by tw04 » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:08 PM UTC

dba7dba wrote: post #13

adventured wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economist has an interesting article out right now, about how the discussion over diesel cars is almost moot with the rapid rise of the electric car globally over the next few years: http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21666226-volkswagens-f...

Globally? Electric cars will never reach that much consumers in Asia as it has in US. Very few people in Shanghai/Seoul/Tokyo own private garage to charge cars in over night. And this is why Toyota/Hyundai are stubbornly pushing Hydrogen cars.

That's as much a technology problem as anything else. If you line the streets with chargers, then have the car and charger interface with each other to report which car is actually charging, you can bill the owner.

Whether or not the areas cars are parked have the appropriate wiring to facilitate chargers is another problem entirely. And quite frankly, I'm still skeptical our electric grid can handle everyone plugging in a car - solar panels or not. It's been overcast here for 4 days straight, if I had to plug my car in, it'd be drawing from an already strained grid. If everyone in my neighborhood did the same thing, I can see a lot of rolling brownouts.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#34

Post by qyv » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:08 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #12

jeffdavis wrote: post #4

What would happen if all the affected consumers demanded the full purchase price returned to them and returned their used cars? It seems clear that they would win, because they were fraudulent sales. But that would bankrupt VW, right?

Maybe. I am not sure this would be the way to go on this. Really the car the consumer got was better (to them) than the product ordered. It had better gas mileage, and better performance than it should have had. The net loser in the trick was the environment (/ the world). If a company does a trick to make money and hurt the environment, the government should step in and make them pay, right? Like if I run a tire sho…

The car may have been better than it should have been, but it was NOT better than was claimed. It is not the product itself that is the problem, it is the claims made of the product by the manufacturer. VW made claims about the power, fuel economy and emissions. In as-delivered configuration the emissions claim is false and in order to live up to the emissions claim they will need to negate the power and economy claims.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#35

Post by qyv » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:09 PM UTC

DasIch wrote: post #23

jeffdavis wrote: post #4

What would happen if all the affected consumers demanded the full purchase price returned to them and returned their used cars? It seems clear that they would win, because they were fraudulent sales. But that would bankrupt VW, right?

It's not at all clear that they would win. There is an article by a German lawyer on the topic[1]. The tl;dr of it is, that given that the car works mostly as intended and that any damage to individual customers is little (if it even exists) customers won't get back the full purchase price and probably not even any money, especially if VW were to provide a fix. [1]: http://www.ferner-alsdorf.de/rechtsanwalt/zivilrech…

Seems to me that any 'fix' that lowers fuel economy would have a real and measurable damage on the owners in the way of increased fuel costs. Wouldn't this just be deflecting the problem from one area to another?

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#36

Post by ubercore » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:10 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #12

jeffdavis wrote: post #4

What would happen if all the affected consumers demanded the full purchase price returned to them and returned their used cars? It seems clear that they would win, because they were fraudulent sales. But that would bankrupt VW, right?

Maybe. I am not sure this would be the way to go on this. Really the car the consumer got was better (to them) than the product ordered. It had better gas mileage, and better performance than it should have had. The net loser in the trick was the environment (/ the world). If a company does a trick to make money and hurt the environment, the government should step in and make them pay, right? Like if I run a tire sho…

A closer analogy would be selling tires that spew asbestos as you drive. The consumer _is_ damaged by the sale because the cars are no longer legal to drive on roads. Even with good-faith doctrines that mean the consumer isn't in the wrong, there are commensurate damages in resale value, and performance _below_ what the consumer was sold. Horsepower and torque numbers will almost certainly need to go down, and urea NOx recovery systems aren't cheap, and it's one more part to maintain.

So I disagree with that interpretation (getting something better than promised; it's only in the very limited sense of average gas milage). I own a TDI and am affected, fwiw.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#37

Post by dalke » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:10 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #12

jeffdavis wrote: post #4

What would happen if all the affected consumers demanded the full purchase price returned to them and returned their used cars? It seems clear that they would win, because they were fraudulent sales. But that would bankrupt VW, right?

Maybe. I am not sure this would be the way to go on this. Really the car the consumer got was better (to them) than the product ordered. It had better gas mileage, and better performance than it should have had. The net loser in the trick was the environment (/ the world). If a company does a trick to make money and hurt the environment, the government should step in and make them pay, right? Like if I run a tire sho…

> the car the consumer got was better (to them) than the product ordered

Two exceptions are: people who prioritize environmental impact over solely personal short-term ones ("act local, think global"); and people who will now have to waste time to get the car fixed so it will pass local smog testing.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#38

Post by nkassis » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:10 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #12

jeffdavis wrote: post #4

What would happen if all the affected consumers demanded the full purchase price returned to them and returned their used cars? It seems clear that they would win, because they were fraudulent sales. But that would bankrupt VW, right?

Maybe. I am not sure this would be the way to go on this. Really the car the consumer got was better (to them) than the product ordered. It had better gas mileage, and better performance than it should have had. The net loser in the trick was the environment (/ the world). If a company does a trick to make money and hurt the environment, the government should step in and make them pay, right? Like if I run a tire sho…

Could the fact that lower emission was a possible selling point and may have affected customer choice have an impact here? Some customer did feel cheated by this fraud since they bought the car in part for it's lower emission and fuel usage.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#39

Post by robotresearcher » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:15 PM UTC

aw3c2 wrote: post #21

rygarfo wrote: post #14

What about the owners of VW cars that aren't affected by the consumption fraud. I would imagine the value of their cars will, regardless of the diesel engine, decrease with the saturation of people selling their cars or trying to return them. Is it possible for non-affected owners to be compensated as well for loss in market value as a result of the company's actions? Concerned Jetta owner here asking smarter people.

I hope not, that would be insane. If a car is not worth its price when you buy it, don't buy it.

Customers did not know the cars violated regulations when they made the buying decision. VW knew all along and deliberately defrauded the customer.

VW screwed up so badly.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#40

Post by dalke » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:15 PM UTC

aw3c2 wrote: post #21

rygarfo wrote: post #14

What about the owners of VW cars that aren't affected by the consumption fraud. I would imagine the value of their cars will, regardless of the diesel engine, decrease with the saturation of people selling their cars or trying to return them. Is it possible for non-affected owners to be compensated as well for loss in market value as a result of the company's actions? Concerned Jetta owner here asking smarter people.

I hope not, that would be insane. If a car is not worth its price when you buy it, don't buy it.

"Worth" includes an estimate of the future money one might get from a sale or trade-in. That estimate is of course fuzzy.

The estimate of worth, and estimate of fuzziness, assumes that VW wasn't deliberately hiding crucial information from the market.