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Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

independent.co.uk

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Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#71

Post by msabalau »

rplst8 wrote: post #48
masklinn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it's really fun all around, with EU manufacturers trying to bypass/fudge more stringent US emission regulations and US manufacturers trying to bypass/fudge more stringent EU safety regulations.

I'd take more stringent safety standards over ridiculous emissions standards any day. Though, you could argue stricter safety standards fly in the face of emissions standards. More weight in the car, plus if the occupant survives, their carbon footprint is still there.

People can decide to drive or not drive. Or at least decide to drive less. Kids with asthma and elderly can't decide not to breathe. Although evidently VW was content to effectively encourage them in the direction of not breathing.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#72

Post by WalterBright »

eatmyshorts wrote: post #68
WalterBright wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather have racing-style belts and no air bag. Racing style go over both shoulders, are wider, and are fixed length. There are some horrific crashes in auto racing and the drivers walk away. That convinces me.

iirc, Volvo did a lot of testing to find the optimum setup in an ordinary passenger car. The 3-point belts worked best, as they were the easiest to get out of after an accident. Remember that race cars typically have people waiting in the event of an accident to assist in removing the person from the car. In a more typical accident, it can be much longer before help arrives. As a result, seat belt setups must be easy…

The 5 point racing harnesses have a very easy to use quick release on it, as it releases all the straps at once. You don't have to unthread your arm from it, like you do with a typical car 3 point system, and the release on typical auto belts is inferior. The webbing is narrower and thinner, too.

I wonder if that was a factor in the Volvo study.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#73

Post by [deleted] »

WalterBright wrote: post #36
mootothemax wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same racing drivers who have to wear top-line racing helmets connected to HANS devices, wear fire-resistant overalls, have medical teams on immediate standby, and who are often strapped in by their mechanics before heading off? I think you may be overlooking an awful lot of what makes modern motor racing safer than it was in the past. (and that's ignoring the number of serious injuries and driver deaths that stil…

I'm looking at the kind of accidents where an airbag is supposed to be effective. An airbag will do nothing for you if the car is burning. The first and foremost safety device in a race car is the racing belt. The belt means you slow down with the car, which is much less deceleration than if your body hits the dashboard. (The point of crumple zones in the car is to reduced peak deceleration. In order for that to work…

[deleted]

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#74

Post by david-given »

WalterBright wrote: post #43
bruceboughton wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you also want to wear a HANS device every time you drive? That's a big part of the reason drivers walk away from horrific crashes these days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device

The seat belts are the most effective. Helmets and HANS add to that, but the belts are the #1 safety device. Another anecdote is in order. My father was a fighter jet instructor. The usual arrangement is tandem seating. He related an incident where the jet went off the runway, the nose gear sunk into the mud and the jet went up on its nose. The guy in back had taken off his shoulder harness while taxiing, but left th…

There's a reason why they don't turn off the seat belt signs on planes until the plane's at the gate and the engines are off!

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#75

Post by colomon »

mcv wrote: post #52
petewailes wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because the legislation originates from a time when most cars didn't have them as a legal requirement, so the assumption is that someone won't have one or be wearing it, if the car has it. That bit has never been updated. It's exactly as insane as it sounds.

It's kind of amazing that air bags were apparently standard in the US before seat belts were. Seat belts are far older technology as far as I know.

I'm not sure exactly what the grandparent was trying to say, but seat belts became mandatory new car features in the US back in the 1960s. Airbags became mandatory new car features in the early 1990s.

On the other hand, I believe seat belt usage was still under 50% in the early 1990s [1], when the airbag legislation was being written. (I was born in 1970, and the first time I remember wearing a seatbelt was the summer of ... '85? Getting a ride from a high school friend to football practice every day quickly made me a convert. :) )

[1] http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2015/07/30/michigan-se...

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#76

Post by RyanMcGreal »

the-dude wrote: post #57
alkonaut wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an age-old debate of "is it ok to (risk) hurting yourself?". Obviously car crashes and other injuries/deaths come at high cost to society even in the case of privatized health insurances, but the cost is at least indirect rather than direct. It's probably even true that the majority of the cost is indirect, and not related to healthcare. That said, not having a seat belt/helmet law is... well, stupid.

In the case of seatbelts I think there is more than only thyself. You might be able to control the vehicle better post-crash, preventing injury to bystanders or passengers.

Also, if you are belted in you are not a projectile ricocheting around the inside of the car and hitting other passengers.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#77

Post by forgetsusername »

WalterBright wrote: post #25
alkonaut wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> designed to require an airbag to be able to stop an adult male not wearing a seatbelt, What? To me it seems obivous that the right thing to do is have the seatbelt be part of the switch for the airbag -- no seatbelt, no detonation!

I'd rather have racing-style belts and no air bag. Racing style go over both shoulders, are wider, and are fixed length. There are some horrific crashes in auto racing and the drivers walk away. That convinces me.

I've often wondered how many lives would be saved if people wore helmets during daily driving. I'd bet a lot. Of course, good luck getting people to do it.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#78

Post by gph »

nomercy400 wrote: post #2

The worrying part here isn't that the cars are not safe, or that TTIP will allow certified cars from the US be sold in EU, but that the industry tries to hide it. And that there is apparently a gap between certification in the US and certification in the EU.

Did they really try to hide it though? They didn't attempt to stop the report from being published.

All they did was not promote it themselves. Is that a bit unethical? Perhaps, but saying they actively tried to hide or bury it makes it seem like they tried to stop the researchers from publishing their results or otherwise put pressure on them to fudge their results. Neither of those things happened.

Honestly, I think the Independent is making a big deal out of it because of the current perception around the VW scandal. And everyone in this thread is eating it up. If this same thing happened without the VW scandal, I doubt anyone cares half as much.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#79

Post by pjc50 »

adaml_623 wrote: post #51
bencoder wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that, I saw the difference. Sorry I wasn't clear in my original post. I meant: what causes the difference? Why is there such a big difference?

Sorry. That's a way harder question :-) I guess it's all a trade off of material/weight vs performance. If you make a more rigid passenger compartment then it might weigh more and your car might be slower. Or maybe you have to spend more on a stronger type of steel that is more expensive. Or you have to make something more complicated to be safer. So on average maybe the US cars come down on the lighter/cheaper/faste…

The US fleet tends to be heavier on average, surely? More SUVs/light trucks, larger vehicles in general.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#80

Post by mcv »

colomon wrote: post #75
mcv wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of amazing that air bags were apparently standard in the US before seat belts were. Seat belts are far older technology as far as I know.

I'm not sure exactly what the grandparent was trying to say, but seat belts became mandatory new car features in the US back in the 1960s. Airbags became mandatory new car features in the early 1990s. On the other hand, I believe seat belt usage was still under 50% in the early 1990s [1], when the airbag legislation was being written. (I was born in 1970, and the first time I remember wearing a seatbelt was the summe…

When I was a kid, in the 1970s, our car didn't yet have seat belts in the back, but in the front, they were required. I think when they became required in the back, it also became required to use if you had them, which obviously older cars didn't.

But having seat belts for decades and then not expecting people to use them, that's kinda silly.

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