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L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

latimes.com

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Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#51

Post by humanrebar »

gozo wrote: post #24
jakeogh wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I donate to people, but is forcing (violently if necessary) other people to do the same ethical? Aren't there better ways?

You are already being forced to pay for homelessness. Directly in the form of things like hospital bills, but also indirectly in terms of inefficiency. Less workforce, public safety, progress etc.

Part of the objection is about tax rates, sure. But there can be ethical questions about forcing people to pay for things. The government could be funding churches. Or, in a dystopia, using the money to sterilize the mentally ill.

Moral objection to spending is what what the defunding of Planned Parenthood and the boycotts of Chik-Fil-A are about. I don't think there will be controversy around treating suffering people, though.

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#52

Post by [deleted] »

Omniusaspirer wrote: post #23

These cities create the homeless problem by enabling the lifestyle. It's a taboo thing to say but spend enough time in different locations and you learn very quickly that the homeless are shameless opportunists who go wherever they can most leech off society. My entire childhood growing up I never saw a single homeless person despite growing up in an impoverished rural area. It was viciously cold outside in the winte…

[deleted]

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#53

Post by DanBC »

anon4 wrote: post #48
sandworm101 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jail and/or prison. That is where many of them end up. Some judges would rather see someone get "treatment" in custody than get nothing on the street.

Jail is different from prison how?

Roughly Americans use prison to refer to places where people are held after being sentenced, and jail to refer to where people are held before sentencing. Or sometimes jail refers to short sentences.

http://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=31513

In England we'd tend to use prison or jail for prisons and "on remand" for people awaiting trial or sentencing, and "police cells" for other stuff.

In the US a lot of prisons have high populations of people with mental illness. See, for example, the use of prisoners to care for other prisoners who have dementia.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/health/dealing-with-dement...

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#54

Post by DanBC »

Omniusaspirer wrote: post #36
DanBC wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My entire childhood growing up I never saw a single homeless person despite growing up in an impoverished rural area You didn't look hard enough. Here's an article about homeless people in Ulan Bator, where temperatures reach -40. http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/07/underground-and-off... http://visura.co/user/MikeA/view/40-96

>Evangelical groups, he said, lure the homeless with offers of food, clothing and showers. But their promises of salvation are ignored, with the men resting inside for a few days before returning to the streets and their stupors. The government, he said, has one hospital where alcoholics are taken for up to two years. But there are few opportunities for work once they get out, so the path often leads back to the stre…

> If they choose

Why do you think homelessness is a choice?

Why do you think addiction is a choice?

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#55

Post by DanBC »

elcct wrote: post #45
DanBC wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homelessness and people being vulnerably housed are useful indicators of poor availability of mental health treatment; of poor availability of drug and alcohol treatment; of a lack of rehabilitation in criminal justice; of predatory and aggressive debt chasing; etc. There's a lot of misinformation and stigma around people who are vulnerably housed (often along the lines of "they did it themselves") so by by creating…

Of course they are indicators, but why exactly this is a problem? What homeless people actually do so that you don't want them to be what they are?

Why is it a problem that people with mental illness do not get treatment?

That's a problem because it means they, and their family, suffer unnecessarily. It's a problem because early intervention is cheaper and more likely to be effective.

> What homeless people actually do so that you don't want them to be what they are?

Homeless people suffer. I don't like to see people suffer. I want to help people who are suffering so that their suffering stops.

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#56

Post by alkonaut »

icebraining wrote: post #40
alkonaut wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you could find democratic support for replacing taxes with voluntary donations... Everyone has an Ayn Rand period, almost everyone grows out of it. Don't worry.

FYI, I downvoted you for your condescending second line.

No worries, I couldn't help it.

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#57

Post by tdylan »

DanBC wrote: post #47
tdylan wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no such thing as 'trickle down'. Cite me one serious economic paper which has referenced it. It's one of those things that through shear force of repetition people believe that it is a real theorem.

Plenty of politicians pushed trickle down. http://www.psmag.com/business-economics/trickle-down-economi...

Politicians with their own self interests. It's not an actual serious economic theory.

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#58

Post by elcct »

DanBC wrote: post #55
elcct wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they are indicators, but why exactly this is a problem? What homeless people actually do so that you don't want them to be what they are?

Why is it a problem that people with mental illness do not get treatment? That's a problem because it means they, and their family, suffer unnecessarily. It's a problem because early intervention is cheaper and more likely to be effective. > What homeless people actually do so that you don't want them to be what they are? Homeless people suffer. I don't like to see people suffer. I want to help people who are sufferi…

> That's a problem because it means they, and their family, suffer unnecessarily. It's a problem because early intervention is cheaper and more likely to be effective.

And why is that your business?

> Homeless people suffer. I don't like to see people suffer. I want to help people who are suffering so that their suffering stops.

Homelessness is a lifestyle for majority of homeless people. What if you don't like other lifestyles? Would you as well go trying to "help", because you don't like it?

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#59

Post by humanrebar »

aidos wrote: post #29
Omniusaspirer wrote: post #23

These cities create the homeless problem by enabling the lifestyle. It's a taboo thing to say but spend enough time in different locations and you learn very quickly that the homeless are shameless opportunists who go wherever they can most leech off society. My entire childhood growing up I never saw a single homeless person despite growing up in an impoverished rural area. It was viciously cold outside in the winte…

You'd do very well not to try not to hold this opinion in your mind: "the homeless are shameless opportunists who go wherever they can most leech off society" You've basically tarred a whole class of (often vulnerable) humans with your predisposed judgements. It's a dangerous thing to do. I'm in a privileged position, and in all honesty, I don't know enough about homelessness to make particularly informed comments on…

> I don't know enough about homelessness to make particularly informed comments on the subject.

But you know enough to say omniusaspirer is wrong?

> What about the kids born into it?

What about the children? Should we debate about their place in society instead of fixing the system that created homeless kids? That same question can be used to accuse the hug-away-homelessness types of perpetuating perverse incentives.

I'm pretty sure I don't know how to help the homeless as a group, but you can't eat melodrama. Give a grumpy person half the leeway you'd give a panhandler, please.

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#60

Post by DanBC »

tdylan wrote: post #57
DanBC wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of politicians pushed trickle down. http://www.psmag.com/business-economics/trickle-down-economi...

Politicians with their own self interests. It's not an actual serious economic theory.

I never said it was. But it was pushed as an economic theory by politicians. It failed. I'm not sure what your point is, but I am sure that you're missing mine.
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