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L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

latimes.com

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Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#31

Post by [deleted] »

alkonaut wrote: post #28
jakeogh wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not much to be changed, just make donations voluntary. People are better off deciding where to spend their money. Politicians can ask for it, and spend what they get. Obviously (judging from approval ratings) they will need to make more articulate arguments. Resources would be better spent.

I don't think you could find democratic support for replacing taxes with voluntary donations... Everyone has an Ayn Rand period, almost everyone grows out of it. Don't worry.

[deleted]

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#32

Post by eivarv »

jakeogh wrote: post #17
alkonaut wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> .. is forcing [...] ethical? In a democracy taxes would be considered ethical, by most. Even for redistribution. > Aren't there better ways? There could be. Do you know any? Use your vote.

There's not much to be changed, just make donations voluntary. People are better off deciding where to spend their money. Politicians can ask for it, and spend what they get. Obviously (judging from approval ratings) they will need to make more articulate arguments. Resources would be better spent.

Why do you assume that people would be "better off deciding where to spend their money", and that "resources would be better spent"?

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#33

Post by jakeogh »

alkonaut wrote: post #28
jakeogh wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not much to be changed, just make donations voluntary. People are better off deciding where to spend their money. Politicians can ask for it, and spend what they get. Obviously (judging from approval ratings) they will need to make more articulate arguments. Resources would be better spent.

I don't think you could find democratic support for replacing taxes with voluntary donations... Everyone has an Ayn Rand period, almost everyone grows out of it. Don't worry.

Is it ethical to put people in cadges who don't agree with you (or your group) on property redistribution? If you get enough people together can they own the minority's things? Does bringing up a controversial author mean anything?

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#34

Post by winter_blue »

vacri wrote: post #16
jakeogh wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I donate to people, but is forcing (violently if necessary) other people to do the same ethical? Aren't there better ways?

No. This libertarian idea that people would give more if they weren't taxed is utter bullshit. As is the idea that every human is an island. We're all in this together. The charities people give to? For the most part, it's acute and visible charities. Very few people give to the same charity again and again, over the course of decades. People also give to attractive charities - kids with terminal diseases is a much e…

> This libertarian idea that people would give more if they weren't taxed is utter bullshit.

This. Libertarians live in some sort of idealistic fantasy, where most humans are intrinsically good, and inclined to do good, like help the poor and needy around them. That is emphatically not the nature of the average human. We absolutely need to force and coerce people to do good, under the threat of violence (for non-payment of taxes).

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#35

Post by [deleted] »

winter_blue wrote: post #34
vacri wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. This libertarian idea that people would give more if they weren't taxed is utter bullshit. As is the idea that every human is an island. We're all in this together. The charities people give to? For the most part, it's acute and visible charities. Very few people give to the same charity again and again, over the course of decades. People also give to attractive charities - kids with terminal diseases is a much e…

> This libertarian idea that people would give more if they weren't taxed is utter bullshit. This. Libertarians live in some sort of idealistic fantasy, where most humans are intrinsically good , and inclined to do good, like help the poor and needy around them. That is emphatically not the nature of the average human. We absolutely need to force and coerce people to do good, under the threat of violence (for non-pay…

[deleted]

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#36

Post by Omniusaspirer »

DanBC wrote: post #27
Omniusaspirer wrote: post #23

These cities create the homeless problem by enabling the lifestyle. It's a taboo thing to say but spend enough time in different locations and you learn very quickly that the homeless are shameless opportunists who go wherever they can most leech off society. My entire childhood growing up I never saw a single homeless person despite growing up in an impoverished rural area. It was viciously cold outside in the winte…

> My entire childhood growing up I never saw a single homeless person despite growing up in an impoverished rural area You didn't look hard enough. Here's an article about homeless people in Ulan Bator, where temperatures reach -40. http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/07/underground-and-off... http://visura.co/user/MikeA/view/40-96

>Evangelical groups, he said, lure the homeless with offers of food, clothing and showers. But their promises of salvation are ignored, with the men resting inside for a few days before returning to the streets and their stupors. The government, he said, has one hospital where alcoholics are taken for up to two years. But there are few opportunities for work once they get out, so the path often leads back to the streets and drink.

If they choose to stay in that position and I never see them that's still a massive net positive. If people want to get obliterated by their addictions and ignore any help available to them then it's silly to interfere with or enable that lifestyle. At that point they've made a choice and I expect the local police to deal with the problem of homeless aggression and harassment. Make help available, and if they choose not to take advantage then continue to remind them help is available while at the same time keeping them from being a public nuisance.

To give you a personal experience: I was followed for a full block and cussed out by a homeless guy just the other day, a choice quote was "it's fuckin Ann Arbor man I know you got money!". My crime? "Sorry, I don't have anything for you, there's a shelter nearby that could really help you out".

These people are a problem, and it's not just because they're "suffering". No individual city is going to fix this problem, and frankly no country is going to fully fix it either. Denmark for example still has a sizable homeless problem despite a massive amount of help available simply because some people choose to be chronically homeless.

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#37

Post by vjoshi »

zyxley wrote: post #11
cbeach wrote: post #3

House prices rise because an area is prospering. Those with no investment in the area are forced to move to an area they can afford. Such is life for all of us.

> are forced to move to an area they can afford And what about the people who can't afford to move in the first place?

zyxley, you took the words right out of my mouth .. Relative poverty is just not considered important enough in this world by some to do something about .. but then when that very person who could have been helped earlier on isn't, the media cry a river over their worsened condition and misfortune.

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#38

Post by sandworm101 »

6t6t6 wrote: post #30

Is there any way a person with a mental illness get a proper treatment in US? I mean, for some one who is unable to work because he has, for instance, schizophrenia, clinical depression or alcoholism, is there any option apart from indigence?

Jail and/or prison. That is where many of them end up. Some judges would rather see someone get "treatment" in custody than get nothing on the street.

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#39

Post by zitterbewegung »

6t6t6 wrote: post #30

Is there any way a person with a mental illness get a proper treatment in US? I mean, for some one who is unable to work because he has, for instance, schizophrenia, clinical depression or alcoholism, is there any option apart from indigence?

If you run out of money or health insurance getting properly treated for mental illness is impossible. Once you lose your job due to mental illness you eventually go on disability and once this occurs it is a long spiral downward. This is due to the elimination of funding for the mentally ill.

Re: L.A. to declare 'state of emergency' on homelessness

#40

Post by icebraining »

alkonaut wrote: post #28
jakeogh wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not much to be changed, just make donations voluntary. People are better off deciding where to spend their money. Politicians can ask for it, and spend what they get. Obviously (judging from approval ratings) they will need to make more articulate arguments. Resources would be better spent.

I don't think you could find democratic support for replacing taxes with voluntary donations... Everyone has an Ayn Rand period, almost everyone grows out of it. Don't worry.

FYI, I downvoted you for your condescending second line.
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