Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#171

Post by TulliusCicero » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:41 PM UTC

fizx wrote: post #166

Bahamut wrote: post #162

It would be nice if the Valley was more pedestrian friendly - all too often bikers ignore the rules. One example is near the Palo Alto Caltrain station tunnel between Stanford and downtown Palo Alto, and too many times pedestrians come close to getting hit by their recklessness :( . One time I got yelled at by a biker on El Camino when trying to board a bus...the biker tried to pass to the right of the bus. It is fru…

It would be nice if the Valley was more pedestrian friendly - all too often cars ignore the rules. One example is near the Palo Alto Caltrain station tunnel between Stanford and downtown Palo Alto, and too many times pedestrians come close to getting hit by their recklessness :( . [Eh, pick any time you've seen a car shoot through a crosswalk and narrowly miss pedestrians... I observe this at least weekly] It is frus…

I love this comment because it illustrates perfectly the cognitive dissonance going on. People everywhere talk about how drivers in their area are like, so, so bad, but nobody ever suggests that we halt investing in car infrastructure until they get better.

And that's a good thing: you don't stop investing in a vital public good just because it's sometimes abused. That applies to bikes as much as cars.

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#172

Post by hueving » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:42 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #168

Bahamut wrote: post #162

It would be nice if the Valley was more pedestrian friendly - all too often bikers ignore the rules. One example is near the Palo Alto Caltrain station tunnel between Stanford and downtown Palo Alto, and too many times pedestrians come close to getting hit by their recklessness :( . One time I got yelled at by a biker on El Camino when trying to board a bus...the biker tried to pass to the right of the bus. It is fru…

Your sentiment is perfectly understandable, but also wrong. Here's a comment from a Dutch guy about biking in the bay area that sums it up: > I think the expectations thing is a big problem, especially combined with bikers being (having to be) more obnoxious in the US. When I just arrived, I was shocked with how much all the bikers broke the rules (skipped lights, biked on the curbs etc.) and just were general asshol…

>Your sentiment is perfectly understandable, but also wrong.

What do you mean it's wrong? The poster said bikers were behaving like assholes, and you refute it with a quote saying a biker from Europe acted like an asshole here?

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#173

Post by sandworm101 » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:44 PM UTC

jrock08 wrote: post #161

sandworm101 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not about replacing cars with bikes, but making biking a viable alternative... That isn't the rhetoric from bikers in my neighbourhood. They actively campaign for the dismantlement of motorvehicle-related infrastructure. Whether it is turning car lanes into bike lanes, reducing available parking in new constructions, or new road taxes, their avowed goal seems to be to make driving more painful.

> dismantlement of motorvehicle-related infrastructure. Whether it is turning car lanes into bike lanes, Yes, it turns out we overbuilt streets and under-built bike infrastructure so now we have to reclaim some car lanes to create bike lanes instead. This is not the end of the world. > reducing available parking in new constructions Reducing the required parking in construction doesn't eliminate parking in new constr…

The infrastructure issue isn't so simple. In my local we are in a real estate boom. There are many groups claiming that cars will not be so prominent in the near future. That view is taken onboard by zoning people when deciding on new buildings. Rather than demand sufficient parking spots and upgrades to roads and mass transit, developers are allowed pretend that a large number of residents will bike to work. That means larger condo blocks with poorer connections, harming bikes, cars and transit. There are a few "green" office blocks around here without any parking spots. So employees park on the street, annoying local business who want those spots used by customers.

This is similar to the "elder housing" theory that assumes that the old people buying the condos will not commute and so do not need parking or transit services. In fact, old people go to lots of appointments, have carers that don't live with them, and are often visited by large numbers of family members. It's just a scam by developers to squeeze more condos into a given space without upgrading infrastructure.

For below: Try actually running a building without parking. Repair people drive vans full of tools. 24/7 employees need to get home at 2am after the bus system has stopped. Tenant businesses need deliveries. A city isn't going to reinvent itself overnight just to accommodate some architect's vision of bike utopia. I responded to a trouble call at one of these buildings ... to great laughter, I parked my motorcycle in the lobby. Art.

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#174

Post by hueving » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:44 PM UTC

fizx wrote: post #166

Bahamut wrote: post #162

It would be nice if the Valley was more pedestrian friendly - all too often bikers ignore the rules. One example is near the Palo Alto Caltrain station tunnel between Stanford and downtown Palo Alto, and too many times pedestrians come close to getting hit by their recklessness :( . One time I got yelled at by a biker on El Camino when trying to board a bus...the biker tried to pass to the right of the bus. It is fru…

It would be nice if the Valley was more pedestrian friendly - all too often cars ignore the rules. One example is near the Palo Alto Caltrain station tunnel between Stanford and downtown Palo Alto, and too many times pedestrians come close to getting hit by their recklessness :( . [Eh, pick any time you've seen a car shoot through a crosswalk and narrowly miss pedestrians... I observe this at least weekly] It is frus…

Cars don't drive on the sidewalks or to the right of buses picking up passengers.

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#175

Post by jrock08 » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:46 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #135

TulliusCicero wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the idea is not to switch ALL driving to biking. That would be silly. The idea is to support and encourage biking where it makes sense. If you're doing short or medium-distance trips where you have limited cargo, biking can work very well, better than cars, both for the individual and for society at large. But only if we build our transportation infrastructure such that biking isn't dangerous.

But if the promotion of biking comes at the expensive of those who cannot bike (via transit/driving taxes etc) then the situation may occur where the disabled and elderly are in fact financing the biking lifestyle of the able-bodied. We are nowhere near this now, but if say 75% of people started commuting via bike the other 25 might wind up paying for the infrastructure. So there is both an infrastructure and taxbase…

Most local road infrastructure is already largely covered by general fund taxes, so if anything bikers should be able to use the roads they've already paid for.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/gasoline-taxes-and-tolls-pa...

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#176

Post by nickbauman » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:46 PM UTC

rwhitman wrote: post #160

Retrofitting American suburban sprawl to be less car-centric is going to be one of the enduring puzzles of the 21st century. The suburban model of planning championed in the 50's onwards became so deeply embedded in development projects and just the entire culture of small city planning across the country that a huge chunk of Americans are completely unaware that a less car-centric lifestyle is even possible, let alo…

Here in Minnesota it's common that suburban "subdivision" neighborhoods don't even have pedestrian sidewalks. And the inhabitants think that's a good thing. I cannot even.

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#177

Post by TulliusCicero » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:47 PM UTC

meatysnapper wrote: post #170

TulliusCicero wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. To a certain extent there's institutional inertia around it now. Another issue is actually pedestrians not liking the idea of cyclists (who are all reckless scofflaws, of course) being right next to them. What they don't realize is that a) the reckless cyclists are a tiny minority of the people willing to bike in good infrastructure, and b) even a reckless cyclist probably still poses less of a thre…

Although i'm a fairly responsible biker, I'd say the amount of bikers I see totally ignoring traffic laws is very high- stoplights, riding fast on sidewalks, going the wrong way on one way roads, etc. Maybe 30%. Re sidewalks, I think most people feel very unsafe on bikes in demarcated bike lines, and I get that. The other stuff is totally crazy though.

> I'd say the amount of bikers I see totally ignoring traffic laws is very high- stoplights, riding fast on sidewalks, going the wrong way on one way roads, etc. Maybe 30%.

Studies show that cyclists and motorists break the law at about the same rate: http://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/08/06/bikers-drivers-brea...

What's usually happening is that we're so used to motorists breaking the law that it doesn't even register. Tons of drivers, likely the majority, on my bike route to work go over the speed limit. When a light goes from green to yellow to red, do drivers correctly stop entering the intersection before it goes red? Nah, most of the time one or two more sneak in.

But I doubt other drivers even notice these things (heck, a lot of the time I don't even notice it): that law-breaking behavior is normalized. People pick up on it more with bikes, because there aren't nearly as many bikes around, so it's more noticeable.

I get the thing about sidewalks, and whenever I ride on sidewalks (which is when the road is wildly unsafe), I make sure to slow down, and I get off my bike if there are a bunch of pedestrians. The thing is, if we did invest in protected bike lanes, cyclists wouldn't ride on the sidewalk, because they wouldn't have to to feel safe.

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#178

Post by jrock08 » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:47 PM UTC

rar_ram wrote: post #63

How about they fix the public transport system first ? The bay area (united states in general, except for a few places) has the worst public transportation system. The VTA light rails and buses are nothing compared to new york or even boston for that matter!

False choice much?

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#179

Post by hueving » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:49 PM UTC

npsimons wrote: post #159

When I did my on-site interview with Google in Mountain View, it was very obvious to me I would almost certainly be car commuting every day, for (at least) two reasons: 1) Cost of houses close to Google was ridiculous. 2) The city is very car centric. Fixing the second may be possible, but the first seems like a more insurmountable (and more important) problem. Where I currently live, I can bike commute to and from w…

Keep in mind big companies like Google have buses that run pretty far and you can just count the ride on the bus as part of your work schedule because you can work on your laptop.

Re: Google Wants to Make Silicon Valley as Bike-Friendly as Copenhagen

#180

Post by TulliusCicero » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 10:50 PM UTC

hueving wrote: post #172

TulliusCicero wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your sentiment is perfectly understandable, but also wrong. Here's a comment from a Dutch guy about biking in the bay area that sums it up: > I think the expectations thing is a big problem, especially combined with bikers being (having to be) more obnoxious in the US. When I just arrived, I was shocked with how much all the bikers broke the rules (skipped lights, biked on the curbs etc.) and just were general asshol…

>Your sentiment is perfectly understandable, but also wrong. What do you mean it's wrong? The poster said bikers were behaving like assholes, and you refute it with a quote saying a biker from Europe acted like an asshole here?

Sorry, I meant this specific part here, which felt like the conclusion:

> I feel like this needs to change first before the area becomes bike friendly.

He's got it backwards: you don't wait until cyclists behave well before you invest in good infrastructure. You invest in good infrastructure, which causes cyclists to start behaving well.

The difference between the Dutch cyclists and American ones isn't that Americans are just all huge jerks in comparison, it's that only one of those two groups feels like they have to break the law to get around on bikes.