Earlier quoted context omitted.
Feeling for you man - been there (recently). You'll get a lot of sideways looks from people who have no reason to doubt you. Ignore it. People always assume the person doing the suing MUST have a good reason. It's the same reason people jump ship whenever someone is accused of a crime: until it happens to you, nobody wants to believe something this destructive can happen without cause. But it does - every day. As a s…
This a more important point than anything I've said in here. Thank you.
When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup
221–230 of 241 posts
Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup
#222Several rookie mistakes in here by the Shred team. First of all if you are gong to start a company while working for someone else, get an explicit agreement in writing before starting that venture. Second, there should have been an agreement/contract in place for doing the additional work which was requested by Smule. The claims of theft could still be made by Smule but Shred's story loses credibility for me because…
I so hate this attitude about people acting in good faith doing 'rookie mistakes'. I'm just answering to this post, but it's by far not the only one along those lines. Why does everything have to be done on explicit contract basis? How can an altruistic act of one party (helping out after leaving the company for free) be turned against them!? Where will this end!? Will I have to get in writing that this was in no way…
Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup
#223Earlier quoted context omitted.
Feeling for you man - been there (recently). You'll get a lot of sideways looks from people who have no reason to doubt you. Ignore it. People always assume the person doing the suing MUST have a good reason. It's the same reason people jump ship whenever someone is accused of a crime: until it happens to you, nobody wants to believe something this destructive can happen without cause. But it does - every day. As a s…
I do computer forensics and have been involved with many IP theft cases. I do know what I'm talking about. "Never walk away from a former employer with code on your computer" is indeed a categorical imperative to live by. - Never walk away from a former employer with code on your computer. - Never walk away with an employer's property. - Never walk away with a functioning email account. - Never walk away with documen…
That's not up to the employee, though, but the company's IT. More like - Ask them to shut down your email account, tell them you'll stop using it, and never use it again?
Ditto for VPN and any other access to their resources aside from strictly limited access of their public facing web site.
Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup
#224Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just a quick correction on point 3, lest someone get too confident they're in the clear: the law about employees owning their own inventions is the default in California, but you can sign an employment contract that signs away those rights. (IANAL, by the way.) Also relevant to HN readers: a lot of those protections are moot if you're acqui-hired: the CA-specific protections about noncompete being unenforceable does…
On point #3, I think we're talking about two different things. You mentioned "noncompete" agreements, which is an important topic but unrelated. What I was talking about is intellectual property assignment clauses. Excerpt: Under California law, an employee cannot be required to assign any of his or her rights in an invention he or she develops “entirely on his or her own time without using the employer’s equipment,…
And of course, that possibility has a chilling effect, which is sort of the point of the overly-broad IP assignment.
(But yes, you're totally right, I was conflating IP assignment and noncompete... I've been tangled up in both.)
Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup
#226IANAL, but: for all the comments stating "there are two sides to every lawsuit," let me say that oftentimes there aren't. And just because someone threatens to sue someone else does not mean the party being sued did anything wrong, it just means plaintiff wanted to sue the defendant. I'm speaking from personal experience, a former employer threatened to sue me for unspecified 'trade secret infringement,' and it cost…
Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup
#227I'm always so paranoid of this at any of my employers so I go through great lengths ensure everything is separated. It's a lot more work in terms of managing your stuff, but can simplify situations like these. I always keep my work and my personal projects completely separated. Separate machines, separate repos, separate accounts and I don't do personal stuff at work. My goal is to have a clear separation so if eithe…
Completely agree. We ourselves were very conscientious to never do anything Shred Video-related on any Smule machines, and did not build anything Shred Video-related until after we'd terminated our full-time employment at Smule.
Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
I do computer forensics and have been involved with many IP theft cases. I do know what I'm talking about. "Never walk away from a former employer with code on your computer" is indeed a categorical imperative to live by. - Never walk away from a former employer with code on your computer. - Never walk away with an employer's property. - Never walk away with a functioning email account. - Never walk away with documen…
Never walk away with a functioning email account. That's not up to the employee, though, but the company's IT. More like - Ask them to shut down your email account, tell them you'll stop using it, and never use it again? Ditto for VPN and any other access to their resources aside from strictly limited access of their public facing web site.
A great example is not removing you from cloud services - this makes them look bad but also makes you look capable of theft. It's more important that it remain possible you committed theft than not. Another is if you used a personal computer for work, as most people I know in startups do these days. If they won't supervise a deletion of the code off your computer YOU CAN NOT DELETE IT! If you are sued, you've now deleted things - what if you turn out to be the only person who had it? That's the real theft, and this has come up in real life cases I've seen - it became critical that the code WASN'T deleted.
The statement to never leave with code, email accounts, etc. is just not practical. It requires cooperation from your employer that will not exist in a situation where they're planning to try to bury you in litigation. It's a fools errand to try to pretend like there are reasonable steps the defendants should have taken - they took many reasonable steps and the plaintiffs can always find more that should have been taken.
Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup
#229Earlier quoted context omitted.
Never walk away with a functioning email account. That's not up to the employee, though, but the company's IT. More like - Ask them to shut down your email account, tell them you'll stop using it, and never use it again? Ditto for VPN and any other access to their resources aside from strictly limited access of their public facing web site.
Exactly. I feel like it's not worth arguing with someone taking this dogmatic approach, but a company that really wants to be in litigation with you will do what it can to convince lawyers and judges (who don't really know how the details of technology work) that you still had access to things and could steal or change them. A great example is not removing you from cloud services - this makes them look bad but also m…
One more trick you can do, although I doubt it will help much in such a bad faith situation---but maybe do it with your lawyer for documentation---is to change your passwords to randomly generated ones that you don't retain. E.g. run pwgen and cut and paste the password into the change and confirmation fields. If with a lawyer or notary, put them in front of the screen at the right point and have them generate the new password and enter it in, and document that you didn't and couldn't see it.
And that will remove all temptation to touch the forbidden fruit. I've done that with a few forums where I really didn't want to continue joining in the ... discussions.
Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup
#230Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Ideas" isn't a form of IP that can be stolen. Did you patent anything? Have you appropriately protected these ideas to qualify for any sort of tradesecret protections? (ps. Don't answer. This is the sort of thing to be discussed with an attorney behind a closed door.)
Some "ideas" are, if they qualify as trade secrets (think Coke's formula). Other's are free to reverse engineer those ideas, but a former employer/vendor/customer exposed to those ideas under an NDA can come after you for misappropriating their qualifying ideas.