Why we're leaving Heroku • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#41

Post by slantedview » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 2:47 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #25

hapless wrote: post #6

Why are we back here every year, like clockwork? This is what, the 4th incarnation of this bill?

Close; it's (I think) the third incarnation. Fun fact: the third incarnation is much worse than the second, which EFF/FFTF vigorously (and, I think, dishonestly) campaigned against. Virtually nobody who campaigns against these bills ever takes the time to read them, despite how remarkably easy it is now to read not only the bills but the amendments it collects as it goes through the legislative process. And still, as…

> despite how remarkably easy it is now to read

You must have more free time than I do. I'm satisfied to let the EFF read it and base my conclusions off of theirs.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#42

Post by JustSomeNobody » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 2:51 AM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #19

Look, this "get in touch with your representative / senator" is not going to do it. Can we start mentioning the sponsors and bad amenders of these bills? Nowhere in this letter does it mention the sponsors of the bill. Yeah, the business may loose a little business, but some other damn corp or group will sponsor this bill. I know in some districts electing a member of the opposite party (and this being a cross-party…

Too many citizens think their favorite party is better for the country than the other party. They'll never actually be objective in who they vote for.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#43

Post by white-flame » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 4:08 AM UTC

hapless wrote: post #6

Why are we back here every year, like clockwork? This is what, the 4th incarnation of this bill?

Because there's effectively no barrier to keep pushing this stuff over and over until it finally takes hold, whether out of outrage fatigue or dumb luck.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#44

Post by Retra » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 4:08 AM UTC

pkinsky wrote: post #39

tptacek wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a variety of other reasons that we can, like that reason, simply make up. The funny thing about your made-up reason? It's actually forbidden by statute in the very bill we're discussing.

Gee, I'm glad the US government takes so much care to follow not just the letter but the spirit of the law.

You're absolutely right. Why don't we just throw every law in the trash because someone might not follow it.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#45

Post by superuser2 » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 4:27 AM UTC

13thLetter wrote: post #27

Unfortunately, most people upset about this issue right now will still obediently walk into the voting booth next November and vote to re-elect public officials (or at least the next candidate from the same party) who supported this. Unless you're willing to put your vote where your mouth is and thus make it clear that actions have consequences, nothing will change.

What election outcome do you imagine is going to make this better?

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#46

Post by protomyth » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 4:28 AM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #42

protomyth wrote: post #19

Look, this "get in touch with your representative / senator" is not going to do it. Can we start mentioning the sponsors and bad amenders of these bills? Nowhere in this letter does it mention the sponsors of the bill. Yeah, the business may loose a little business, but some other damn corp or group will sponsor this bill. I know in some districts electing a member of the opposite party (and this being a cross-party…

Too many citizens think their favorite party is better for the country than the other party. They'll never actually be objective in who they vote for.

Given that, this is a non-party issue. Plenty of blue and red on the good and bad sides. You primary-out the offenders and don't worry about party. The issue matters.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#47

Post by mc32 » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 4:32 AM UTC

Finster wrote: post #11

I need a browser plugin or something to let me know when I'm visiting the website of a company that has thrown in with gov't surveillance.

I think the list of the ones not complicit acquiescent with some government somewhere would be shorter.

On a sidenote, I think this kind of thinking has the potential to stray into a purist and idealist kind of dead-end exercise in frustration.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#48

Post by grkvlt » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 5:02 AM UTC

hapless wrote: post #6

Why are we back here every year, like clockwork? This is what, the 4th incarnation of this bill?

Because that's the way democratic legislatures work. If your law does not get approved, it means there's something in it that a majority does not like. Therefore there is an iterative process, actually in two parts, the first being amendments added as the bill is read, the second being re-submission of a modified version that it is hoped will be more appealling. The fact that something is submitted again and again with various modifications each time is not unusual, it is just government working as intended, making sure the things that become laws are, in fact, things we want to become laws.

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#49

Post by 13thLetter » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 5:19 AM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #45

13thLetter wrote: post #27

Unfortunately, most people upset about this issue right now will still obediently walk into the voting booth next November and vote to re-elect public officials (or at least the next candidate from the same party) who supported this. Unless you're willing to put your vote where your mouth is and thus make it clear that actions have consequences, nothing will change.

What election outcome do you imagine is going to make this better?

Any election outcome where politicians who fail to oppose this, whether Democratic or Republican, are out of office and replaced with those of a different party, is the path to making this better.

If you keep throwing the bums out -- and don't tell me that's impossible, no matter how many ads they buy they can't directly control what vote gets cast -- eventually you'll have bums in office who have a better sense of self-preservation. There's a very smart epigram along the lines of, the way to get good policy is not to elect good politicians, because such beasts hardly exist or get corrupted fast: it's to give bad politicians an incentive to act good. Let's give our bad politicians a nice strong incentive to oppose the surveillance state, hey?

Re: Why we're leaving Heroku

#50

Post by aagha » Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 5:37 AM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #45

13thLetter wrote: post #27

Unfortunately, most people upset about this issue right now will still obediently walk into the voting booth next November and vote to re-elect public officials (or at least the next candidate from the same party) who supported this. Unless you're willing to put your vote where your mouth is and thus make it clear that actions have consequences, nothing will change.

What election outcome do you imagine is going to make this better?

The one where a candidate like Sanders, who has stood up against government surveillance, takes steps to put a stop to it.