Why, as a rational actor, would I voluntarily choose this system over one that gives me the freedom to decide what the government sees about my spending?
GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society
101–110 of 188 posts
Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because unless the government can track citizen's income it cannot tax it, and without taxes modern society cannot function at all. Technologies like this would be a boon to many developing countries like mine where tax evasion and corruption is rampant. It would enable the government to collect funds for infrastructure, education, environmental protection and healthcare (and yes, I am a progressive liberal who would…
The question remains, why would anyone choose to use a system like this? Wealthy individuals and companies (aka those with most of the money) have a vested interest in having their transactions not easily tracked by the government.
Probably the goal is that you're coerced to use it, as with every other government service.
Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society
#103Unlike BitCoin or cash payments, Taler ensures that governments can easily track their citizen's income and thus collect sales, value-added or income taxes. Taler is thus a currency for the mainstream economy, and not the black market. Sounds pretty useless to me then. I would think, as technologists, we would adhere to a mindset of "we can do better". That is, we can do better than basing our society on a State appa…
Please don't project your political expectations onto the technology community then criticize it for failing to conform to them.
Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because unless the government can track citizen's income it cannot tax it, and without taxes modern society cannot function at all. Technologies like this would be a boon to many developing countries like mine where tax evasion and corruption is rampant. It would enable the government to collect funds for infrastructure, education, environmental protection and healthcare (and yes, I am a progressive liberal who would…
The question remains, why would anyone choose to use a system like this? Wealthy individuals and companies (aka those with most of the money) have a vested interest in having their transactions not easily tracked by the government.
Because systems that do not provide such transparency will eventually be made illegal?
Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society
#105Free software for an unfree currency.
Very well said. As long as our monetary system is not freed from the grasp of the government/central banks/banks in general, reasonable currencies will never be widespread... Sane money is money that cannot be printed in arbitrary amounts. The money monopoly is particularly harmful to economy & citizens.
Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
As far as I understand it, Taler seems to be great for privacy and society (ensuring income is taxable). Governments can't see how you spend your money, but they can see who receives payments. Bitcoin and others will never succeed because they are too friendly towards illicit behaviour. Taler seems to strike a genuinely interesting and ethical balance here.
The underlying assumption is that governments don't care about how you spend money. This is patently untrue, because "liberal" governments explicitly use taxation as global social modification schemes, for all sorts of things beyond income redistribution - from minimizing percieved vices (alcohol, tobacco) to minimizing environmental footprint, etc. The idea that this sort of activity is able to be decoupled from sur…
Those schemes don't usually depend on knowing what each particular citizen bought; the tax is imposed on the product, not on the person, so you'll pay it even if you use a perfectly anonymous currency.
That said, I do agree that governments care about the contents of the purchase; around here, all sales must be invoiced with certified software, and a copy of all invoices issued must be delivered monthly to the IRS by businesses. As the buyer, you can opt to remain anonymous, but they're trying to push people into not doing so.
Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
The question remains, why would anyone choose to use a system like this? Wealthy individuals and companies (aka those with most of the money) have a vested interest in having their transactions not easily tracked by the government.
> Wealthy individuals and companies (aka those with most of the money) have a vested interest in having their transactions not easily tracked by the government. Many may think or assert that, especially based on the trendy anti-government dogma, but I disagree. They have a vested interest in a fair and enforced taxation system. Otherwise they lose effective government and its services, both of which are absolutely es…
I don't see why is "fair" required; tax money works just as well if the system is unfair.
Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
It may be that the disagreement you're encountering is based on your acceptance of the premise that taxes are collected at gunpoint. It's extending a principle to an extreme logical conclusion and appealing to a formulaic interpretation of the world. It is divorced from the real world and makes the perfect the enemy of the good.
It's not even slightly divorced from the real world. If you don't "pay your taxes" they will eventually send men with guns to confiscate your property and/or arrest you. And if you try to protect yourself, said "men with guns" will fucking shoot you dead. That is reality. And it's absolutely horrifying.
But it is nothing compared to the reality without taxes, where ANYONE (who can afford more men with guns than you can) can come and shoot you dead right away and take your property, not even giving you a chance to pay taxes (or vote) first.
Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
You do realize that governments make the laws, and that they can just raise taxes rather than try to dispute your tax report?
But then they can't lie about it, at least not as easily. And if they were better able to collect from tax-evading corporations, maybe they wouldn't need to tax individuals as much.
And if they were better able to collect from tax-evading corporations, maybe they wouldn't need to tax individuals as much.
- Humphrey, this paper says that if we cancel Trident and bring in conscription, we
shall have £1.5 billion for tax cuts, and what do I find?
- What do you find, Prime Minister?
- The Chancellor opposes me. A great chance to be popular with the voters and he
says no. Doesn't that surprise you?
- No.
- Why doesn't it surprise you?
- He's advised by the Treasury and they don't believe in giving money back.
- It's not theirs. It's the taxpayers'.
- That's not the view the Treasury takes. Not once they've got it.
- But if they don't need it?
- Sorry?
- If they don't need it.
- Taxation isn't about what you need.
- What is it about?
- The Treasury doesn't work out what they need to spend and then think how to raise
the money.
- What DOES it do?
- They pitch for as much as they think they can get away with, then think what to
spend it on. If you start giving money back because you don't need it, you're
breaking with centuries of tradition!Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
As far as I understand it, Taler seems to be great for privacy and society (ensuring income is taxable). Governments can't see how you spend your money, but they can see who receives payments. Bitcoin and others will never succeed because they are too friendly towards illicit behaviour. Taler seems to strike a genuinely interesting and ethical balance here.
The underlying assumption is that governments don't care about how you spend money. This is patently untrue, because "liberal" governments explicitly use taxation as global social modification schemes, for all sorts of things beyond income redistribution - from minimizing percieved vices (alcohol, tobacco) to minimizing environmental footprint, etc. The idea that this sort of activity is able to be decoupled from sur…
Why did you specify liberal governments (is this not something all governments do?), and put it in quotes?