Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

taler.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 188 posts

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#71

Post by ijktdot »

This is a digital payment scheme that respects the customers privacy, when buying from merchants. The alternative besides a cryptocurrency, would be a prepaid cc you buy with cash in a store, but then VISA knows everything you buy with it, whereas this system the payment provider (the "mint") and merchant are separated. If you directly buy things with SEPA then your bank knows everything you buy. This allows for lawful payments, allows any company to become a mint (no payment monopolies) and is free software so you can make your own wallet client and not have to rely on proprietary software wallet apps.

People can still become a black market escrow, keep creating new merchants and facilitate user to user transactions unless there is some kind of cost or identification required to accept Taler payments, or exchange Taler for bitcoin. US law makers will likely try to prohibit Taler though if any online gambling accepts it as payment, for example Paysafecard had to design a special UIGEA compliant card in order for it not to be able to be plugged into a gambling site to get into the US payments market.

Speaking of bitcoin pretty much every online exchange will start accepting Taler, then they aren't so exposed to banks shutting them down and can trade in any currency.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#72

Post by hackuser »

dublinben wrote: post #28
radmuzom wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because unless the government can track citizen's income it cannot tax it, and without taxes modern society cannot function at all. Technologies like this would be a boon to many developing countries like mine where tax evasion and corruption is rampant. It would enable the government to collect funds for infrastructure, education, environmental protection and healthcare (and yes, I am a progressive liberal who would…

The question remains, why would anyone choose to use a system like this? Wealthy individuals and companies (aka those with most of the money) have a vested interest in having their transactions not easily tracked by the government.

> Wealthy individuals and companies (aka those with most of the money) have a vested interest in having their transactions not easily tracked by the government.

Many may think or assert that, especially based on the trendy anti-government dogma, but I disagree. They have a vested interest in a fair and enforced taxation system. Otherwise they lose effective government and its services, both of which are absolutely essential to their safety and prosperity.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#73

Post by msandford »

afshin wrote: post #52
mindcrime wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

roads have been built by governments using tax revenue since history began Some roads have been built by government... not all where, and not all are even now. I'll posit that a significant number of Americans drive on at least one private road every single day. Chances are, if you live in any kind of suburban housing subdivision, the road right in front of your house actually wasn't created, and isn't maintained, by…

It may be that the disagreement you're encountering is based on your acceptance of the premise that taxes are collected at gunpoint. It's extending a principle to an extreme logical conclusion and appealing to a formulaic interpretation of the world. It is divorced from the real world and makes the perfect the enemy of the good.

> It may be that the disagreement you're encountering is based on your acceptance of the premise that taxes are collected at gunpoint.

Isn't that true, though? I mean, the IRS doesn't send around a tax-person who carries a pistol or rifle or whatever, but the whole system is founded on the idea that "if you don't do what 'society' has agreed is the law, bad things (tm) can and probably will happen to you".

Paying taxes isn't optional in the same way that getting a driver's license is optional. So it's literally true that taxes are collected through the subtle but ultimately real threat of violence. Maybe you won't be executed, maybe you won't be beaten, but you will be made to do things against your will like go to jail.

Sure it's the extreme logical conclusion, but it's also the accurate one if you try not to pay.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#75

Post by Jtsummers »

mindcrime wrote: post #42
oberstein wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We never had roads before the 19th century when personal income tax was introduced.

You mean "we never had government roads before..." Obviously people managed to move themselves from place to place prior to the 19th century... roads are far, far older than that.

And many, particularly paved roads [1], were constructed by governments in order to allow the transportation of their armies and trade goods vital to their economies.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#77

Post by Sanddancer »

mindcrime wrote: post #42
oberstein wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We never had roads before the 19th century when personal income tax was introduced.

You mean "we never had government roads before..." Obviously people managed to move themselves from place to place prior to the 19th century... roads are far, far older than that.

In pretty much the entirety of civilization, important roads were indeed maintained by the government. Hence why the constitution had clauses dealing with road construction, hence the Appian Way, etc. Infrastructure projects like roads are one of the universals among societies.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#78

Post by hackuser »

Consider how valuable this could be to privacy.

Governments likely will insist on a mechanism to track electronic currencies, for tax, regulatory and other reasons. Governments seem to have very little concern for privacy. So the mechanism they choose could very well ignore privacy.

By building a mechanism that meets government needs and by being an early mover, Taler could be the de facto solution by the time governments get around to dealing with this issue, and could make privacy the policy.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#80

Post by ijktdot »

hackuser wrote: post #78

Consider how valuable this could be to privacy. Governments likely will insist on a mechanism to track electronic currencies, for tax, regulatory and other reasons. Governments seem to have very little concern for privacy. So the mechanism they choose could very well ignore privacy. By building a mechanism that meets government needs and by being an early mover, Taler could be the de facto solution by the time govern…

There's a global racket in market data mining too, to track demographics and see what they are buying. This system defeats any large payment entity from payment tracking.

Taler can also compete with Ukash, since it's free/open any merchant can implement their own Taler for cash business without signing large exclusive contracts with Ukash or waiting a month to be settled by them, as you can freely choose which Mint to do business with.

Post reply on HN