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Unexpected Thoughts Regarding Classical Music

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Re: Unexpected Thoughts Regarding Classical Music

#21

Post by rinich »

aristoxenus wrote: post #18
rinich wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And admittedly so.

It's hard to imagine it playing out otherwise -- you need to start somewhere, and that stuff is: a) more familiar to the ear b) more plentifully recorded c) more widely discussed and recommended etc.

b) more plentifully recorded

That's a big one.

There's some more obscure classical music that I happen to be a huge fan of. Problem is, with that music I came on listening to it as if it were a song and not a composition. When I listen to Steve Reich's Music For 18 Musicians, the first music I think to compare it to is Sufjan Stevens, who's a pop songwriter. Or I'll listen to Philip Glass and think of rock riffs. The problem is that for those more modern musicians (and for certain older, less well-known ones) is that we don't have the same conservative respect for them, and we have fewer interpretations of their music. When I listen to Einstein on the Beach, there are only two known recordings, and they're of music that's so innovative that your thoughts aren't about the interpretation, they're about the design of the music period.

(I'd also like to add, as an aside, that Hacker News sees the most bizarre stories submitted. Every article I've written that's at all tech-related gets passed over; without fail every article I'm insecure about writing and worry will be passed over finds its way here.)

Re: Unexpected Thoughts Regarding Classical Music

#22

Post by rinich »

stcredzero wrote: post #20
rinich wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an utterly biased and thoroughly wrong accusation. Name one of those songs lacking melody and I'll point out exactly what line could get stuck in my head. Even songs that use chords as a hook don't get the entire chord stuck: There's a single line that catches you. The real problem is a little bit more complex: We instinctively set up divides between us and things we don't know, so that we may more readily dis…

That's an utterly biased and thoroughly wrong accusation. I think not. If you are one of those people who can relate to snippets of melody, then you are, by definition , not one of those people devoid of melodic perception. Or, are you assuming that your particular perceptions represent the entire spectrum of listeners of electronic music. I doubt that's warranted. What you do is fundamental to the human experience -…

I look at it another way. When I play classical music, I find that I develop an appreciation for its nuances that I don't initially have. I start liking every individual line for its melody, whereas at first I only hear one or two things. And the more I listen to music, the more quickly I'm able to break down new music that I listen to.

Most of us are born with some ability like this.

Exactly why I'm confused as to your initial point:

A lot of people just don't have the wherewithal to appreciate melodic music. Melody just escapes them.

Now, in modern music there is a branch that focuses on rhythm more than it does on melody (in classical music as well as in pop). However, that branch is still exceedingly rare compared to the rest of what's coming out. People who listen to Lady Gaga, the Jonas Brothers, and J-Lo are all listening to music for its melodies. So it's not the fact that classical music is melodic that turns them off.

My suspicion is that a part of it is an inability to really sympathize with the music. Pulsating beats are more instantly relatable than a complex sonata, which can be more readily dismissed as "tinkly classical nonsense" if a listener's apathetic.

Re: Unexpected Thoughts Regarding Classical Music

#24

Post by jtnak »

gb wrote: post #8

Something that strikes me - whenever I've seen pieces like this before, they often seem to ignore that people still write classical music. It's nearly always Mozart, Beethoven, Bach but no mention of any modern or contemporary composers... I wonder why that is. Sure some contemporary classical music is a bit more esoteric and even less likely to appeal to the average listener, but it's certainly not all like that. Ma…

So what? Classical music will never have the same level of prominence that it did before the 1900's. That's his point.

Re: Unexpected Thoughts Regarding Classical Music

#25

Post by rinich »

jtnak wrote: post #23

OK, so he said that classical music and the community around it is more rigid than most newer forms of music and their communities, and that it's dying, and the former might cause the latter. What is so unexpected, I wonder

Unexpected not perhaps for a vast audience, but for me. What you didn't mention was perhaps the core of the post: Classical music isn't dead, it's living and breathing and subject to interpretation. Then the points you mentioned carry with them certain implications, namely that classical music could benefit from irreverence and innovation, and that modern music would benefit from classical music's being made more accessible.

Re: Unexpected Thoughts Regarding Classical Music

#26

Post by rinich »

jtnak wrote: post #24
gb wrote: post #8

Something that strikes me - whenever I've seen pieces like this before, they often seem to ignore that people still write classical music. It's nearly always Mozart, Beethoven, Bach but no mention of any modern or contemporary composers... I wonder why that is. Sure some contemporary classical music is a bit more esoteric and even less likely to appeal to the average listener, but it's certainly not all like that. Ma…

So what? Classical music will never have the same level of prominence that it did before the 1900's. That's his point.

Actually, my point was that if we look at classical music and say "So what?" we're losing a vast treasure.

Re: Unexpected Thoughts Regarding Classical Music

#27

Post by jtnak »

rinich wrote: post #26
jtnak wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? Classical music will never have the same level of prominence that it did before the 1900's. That's his point.

Actually, my point was that if we look at classical music and say "So what?" we're losing a vast treasure.

What I was trying to say in my reply was that "he is ignoring the fact that people still write classical music" is not a valid point. There are 6.7 billion people on this planet; if there are a couple of people with a hobby, that does not prove anything.

Re: Unexpected Thoughts Regarding Classical Music

#28

Post by rinich »

jtnak wrote: post #27
rinich wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, my point was that if we look at classical music and say "So what?" we're losing a vast treasure.

What I was trying to say in my reply was that "he is ignoring the fact that people still write classical music" is not a valid point. There are 6.7 billion people on this planet; if there are a couple of people with a hobby, that does not prove anything.

Gotcha. But what if those "people with a hobby" are capable of doing incredible things with music? They'd benefit from being in a field of music that's not neglected for being thought of as centuries-old.

Re: Unexpected Thoughts Regarding Classical Music

#29

Post by stcredzero »

rinich wrote: post #22
stcredzero wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an utterly biased and thoroughly wrong accusation. I think not. If you are one of those people who can relate to snippets of melody, then you are, by definition , not one of those people devoid of melodic perception. Or, are you assuming that your particular perceptions represent the entire spectrum of listeners of electronic music. I doubt that's warranted. What you do is fundamental to the human experience -…

I look at it another way. When I play classical music, I find that I develop an appreciation for its nuances that I don't initially have. I start liking every individual line for its melody, whereas at first I only hear one or two things. And the more I listen to music, the more quickly I'm able to break down new music that I listen to. Most of us are born with some ability like this. Exactly why I'm confused as to y…

> Most of us are born with some ability like this.

Exactly why I'm confused as to your initial point

My point is about degrees of development. Also, note that I leave room for some people to be devoid of melodic sense. I've taught music, and I'll tell you there are a few out there.

Heck, we're mostly all born with some degree of hand-eye coordination. That doesn't all make us star outfielders or professional jugglers. Someone won't develop a sophisticated appreciation of baseball just because they were born with the baseline set of neuromuscular resources.

Re: Unexpected Thoughts Regarding Classical Music

#30

Post by chickamade »

jtnak wrote: post #24
gb wrote: post #8

Something that strikes me - whenever I've seen pieces like this before, they often seem to ignore that people still write classical music. It's nearly always Mozart, Beethoven, Bach but no mention of any modern or contemporary composers... I wonder why that is. Sure some contemporary classical music is a bit more esoteric and even less likely to appeal to the average listener, but it's certainly not all like that. Ma…

So what? Classical music will never have the same level of prominence that it did before the 1900's. That's his point.

That's not his point. His point is that he has connected to the music by listening to what he likes, rather than what he was told to respect. I'd hardly call that result "unexpected", though.

As for your point, it is debatable. I think the percentage of people enjoying classical music is greater today than 100 years ago.

If you actually meant that the quality of music we write today is lower, that is very hard to for us to judge until maybe 100 years later. Maybe you've heard of John Cage, Luciano Berio, or perhaps György Ligeti -- whose music was used as the soundtrack of 2001: A Space Odyssey. There are a lot of people out there writing contemporary "classical" music that are respected in the music community, but virtually unknown elsewhere (and they are respected because we are touched by their music, just like the author has written, and not because they are writing avant-garde, esoteric music).

I would admit that the percentage of quality music in the total corpus being performed and listened today is unfortunately lower than it might have been 100 years ago.

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