Live data from Hacker News

Why the US stores 700M barrels of oil underground

bbc.com

61–70 of 98 posts

Re: Why the US stores 700M barrels of oil underground

#61
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not beyond believing that the current gutting of oil prices was done at the US's behest to damage Russia. It wouldn't take too much in the way of guarantees to Saudi Arabia to have them swamp the markets. Far more effective than military intervention.

Sorry but that's nonsense. It's a well known and indeed publically admitted strategy by the Saudi's to drive US shale producers out of business. Google "saudia arabia united states oil price" for many authoritive hits on the subject. Russia was collateral damage.

You can google "Russia united stated oil price" and find authoritative hits supporting the other argument.

Re: Why the US stores 700M barrels of oil underground

#62
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charlie Munger has mentioned the same "use theirs first" approach: "The imported oil is not your enemy, it's your friend. Every barrel that you use up that comes from somebody else is a barrel of your precious oil which you're going to need to feed your people and maintain your civilization." http://seekingalpha.com/article/1631292-charlie-munger-think...

The disingenous (or ignorant) thing about that sort of thing is that it makes no mention of alternative fuel prices. Coal and natural gas can be refined into gasoline. This is obviously not a great idea from an environmental standpoint, but from a cost standpoint it becomes economically viable when oil hits about $70/barrel. Electrolysis-refined hydrogen becomes economical when oil hits $200/barrel, and that has a lo…

The US tapped out its highest-profit traditional oil wells a long time ago, and used the export profits to grow its economy. Now the US is awash in fracked gas.

The "sit on it" strategy assumes that the resource held in reserve will not become obsolete. It makes more sense to me to pull it all out of the ground as fast as you can, so you can sell more of it when the global price is highest, rather than being forced to buy at that time.

Didn't China learn anything from its rare earths play? The supply curve never really hits a brick wall. As long as the price keeps going up, the market keeps producing more to sell. And even if you hit a hard limit, such as by exhausting all the cheap wells and mines, human ingenuity often produces an acceptable substitute.

Many countries are burning the petroleum as fast as they can, keeping the computers running for the engineers researching wind, solar, nuclear fission, geothermal, hydrogen, fracking, cellulose enzymes, algae oils, nuclear fusion, radioisotope thermal, external combustion engines, generator-electric hybrids, fuel cells, denser batteries, more efficient motors and transmissions, and a whole host of other technologies that will finally be ready to take over, once the last oil on Earth is being burned by China to keep its lights on and tractors running.

Everyone else will be running their tractors with fuels mixed up from agricultural waste, and keeping the lights on with a dozen different competing technologies.

It seems like a bad strategy to me, but I'm not Chinese.

Re: Why the US stores 700M barrels of oil underground

#63

Two quick comments: "Hides" is a stupid word. It's not hidden; it's well-advertised. The reporter calls it "expensive" because it costs $200m/year. That's not expensive, that's ridiculously cheap insurance; it's surely one of the most cost-effective government programs in existence. (I stopped reading at that point.)

It's an insurance and once it is really needed it will be worth more than all dollars combined. In my opinion the amount of stored oil is ridiculously low with about 8 days of world oil consumption. It can only be used to iron out minor hiccups on the world production or to power the US military and US emergency food supply for some time. Is this reporter telling us that this little safety measure isn't worth that am…

I think it would make sense to compare the barrels with US demand and not global demand. I couldn't find a good recent estimate of US oil demand. Wikipedia says it was ~18M/day in 2011. That would mean about 40 days of reserves, which is pretty good, IMO.

Re: Why the US stores 700M barrels of oil underground

#64
post #12

The use of "hides" is a bit clickbaity, if they said "stores" then people would have thought it a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

Not just clickbaity but factually incorrect. There are right there for everyone to see (from Google Maps) ... https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bryan+Mound+Strategic+Petr...

It has its own webpage at the DOE. Some secret. Sadly, HN often falls for click-baity articles with an anti-US or conspiratorial spin to them.

http://energy.gov/fe/services/petroleum-reserves/strategic-p...

Re: Why the US stores 700M barrels of oil underground

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an insurance and once it is really needed it will be worth more than all dollars combined. In my opinion the amount of stored oil is ridiculously low with about 8 days of world oil consumption. It can only be used to iron out minor hiccups on the world production or to power the US military and US emergency food supply for some time. Is this reporter telling us that this little safety measure isn't worth that am…

I think it would make sense to compare the barrels with US demand and not global demand. I couldn't find a good recent estimate of US oil demand. Wikipedia says it was ~18M/day in 2011. That would mean about 40 days of reserves, which is pretty good, IMO.

More recent figures can be found here: http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/PET_SUM_CRDSND_K_M.htm

We (the United States) produce around 9 million barrels per day, and could produce more if necessary. We import a bit more than 7 million barrels per day.

We wouldn't need to replace domestic production, so the strategic reserve would cover about 100 days of lost imports. But there are few if any scenarios where we'd lose all imports -- most likely we'd lose access to only a small fraction of imports, and even that kind of shock would spike prices and thus our consumption would drop and domestic production would increase -- so the reserve can be expected to last far more than 100 days. (If we are ever in a situation where it seems plausible the reserve might be exhausted, e.g., a major global war, then extreme conservation measures will be enforced, and the discussion changes state.)

Re: Why the US stores 700M barrels of oil underground

#66
post #11

When my Uncle worked out in China about 15 years ago, a local dignitary was giving him a tour of the local area. He noticed what looked line capped oil wells in the fields. When he asked what they were the official confirmed that they contained oil, which "we will only start using once we can't buy anymore from anyone else". I've never heard of China having their own oil fields so I assume that there was something lo…

This is the same strategy the US pursued after WWII. Secretary of the Navy James Forrestal was a major proponent within the Truman administration of encouraging private American development of sources in the Arabian Gulf in order to preserver American production for use in a future war in the event we could not secure foreign supplies.

Re: Why the US stores 700M barrels of oil underground

#67
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not beyond believing that the current gutting of oil prices was done at the US's behest to damage Russia. It wouldn't take too much in the way of guarantees to Saudi Arabia to have them swamp the markets. Far more effective than military intervention.

Sorry but that's nonsense. It's a well known and indeed publically admitted strategy by the Saudi's to drive US shale producers out of business. Google "saudia arabia united states oil price" for many authoritive hits on the subject. Russia was collateral damage.

Why not both? Gives a better reason for the Saudi's to go along with the plan. They help the US political side and get paid in political good will and getting to damage the US competitors.

Re: Why the US stores 700M barrels of oil underground

#68
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but that's nonsense. It's a well known and indeed publically admitted strategy by the Saudi's to drive US shale producers out of business. Google "saudia arabia united states oil price" for many authoritive hits on the subject. Russia was collateral damage.

You can google "Russia united stated oil price" and find authoritative hits supporting the other argument.

Whether intentional or not, Russia's economy is something like 40% oil and gas so the effect was certainly severe.

Re: Why the US stores 700M barrels of oil underground

#69
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not beyond believing that the current gutting of oil prices was done at the US's behest to damage Russia. It wouldn't take too much in the way of guarantees to Saudi Arabia to have them swamp the markets. Far more effective than military intervention.

Sorry but that's nonsense. It's a well known and indeed publically admitted strategy by the Saudi's to drive US shale producers out of business. Google "saudia arabia united states oil price" for many authoritive hits on the subject. Russia was collateral damage.

From my understanding the dump was started from financial companies that had loads of oil sitting around in tankers and the Saudis then followed and met the price, but didn't set it.

Re: Why the US stores 700M barrels of oil underground

#70
post #48

Two quick comments: "Hides" is a stupid word. It's not hidden; it's well-advertised. The reporter calls it "expensive" because it costs $200m/year. That's not expensive, that's ridiculously cheap insurance; it's surely one of the most cost-effective government programs in existence. (I stopped reading at that point.)

It was a clink baitish title. Looking at the title I'd assume it was all about the US hording oil. In fact, they mentioned several counties and stated it was common for larger countries to keep reserves. The title is trying to bash the US and capitalize on the US hating going on right now.

Or maybe it was just a purposely provocative title?
Post reply on HN