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Jackfruit could save millions from starvation

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Re: Jackfruit could save millions from starvation

#61
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think western writers have a silly perspective on India. It's more diverse than the European Union, really! How can one say anything at all about all of India at once?

What do you mean by "more diverse than the European Union"? In what way?

The sheer diversity of language and culture in a place that is a third of the size of Europe. India "officially" has 122 languages, but over 780 have been counted.

Going from one state to another is like going from one EU country to another; each of the 29 states has a different language, different writing-system, different culture, different cuisine, different traditions, different everything. Of course, there are similarities and towards the borders between states you get a kind of continuum of language and culture.

Re: Jackfruit could save millions from starvation

#62
post #37

I live in Florida, and sometimes as I drive throughout the state and see the hundreds and hundreds (though it may be thousands) of oranges alongside the road I wonder just how many go to waste that could be sent to places in need, and then I wonder if there's other places that do the same... Most of the United States is uninhabited, so I always wonder how much vegetation is just sitting there that could feed others.…

What if the same companies that sell you oranges could give some of those same oranges to the homeless? A lot of (mostly urban) businesses do, in fact, give food to help feed the homeless. In downtown San Diego, one or more Starbucks locations gives away leftover items to a women's services center to help provide a free coffee and pastry breakfast to indigent women. Presumably they get a write off for it, plus they o…

> There have been all kinds of problems caused in the past by food aid, such as women being given just enough baby formula for their baby that their own natural milk production dried up, then the free aid stopped.

That's not what happened. It was Nestle actively encouraging hospitals to recommend baby formula, by bribing doctors and providing the formula for free. Then, when the mothers left the hospital, they were pretty much forced into buying formula, and those who couldn't afford it basically had their babies starve to death.

In other words, it was Nestle literally killing babies in search of profit. There was no "food aid" element to this at all.

Re: Jackfruit could save millions from starvation

#63
post #61
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "more diverse than the European Union"? In what way?

The sheer diversity of language and culture in a place that is a third of the size of Europe. India "officially" has 122 languages, but over 780 have been counted. Going from one state to another is like going from one EU country to another; each of the 29 states has a different language, different writing-system, different culture, different cuisine, different traditions, different everything. Of course, there are s…

Fair enough. I realise that the Indian states are very different, much like different EU countries.

I don't think the EU has quite as many languages (and dialects) as that, though there are more than many people think. Have a quick look at the list here, for example:

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/saoghal/mion-chanain/en/

Many that previously existed have died out, of course. And as TV and radio became more prevelant, it did kill off a large number of dialects. I've noticed in the UK that in certain regions, it's the older folk who have the broadest accents and use the most dialect words, compared with younger people.

Do you see the same thing happening in India, or are they managing to preserve local tradition alongside the mainstream?

Re: Jackfruit could save millions from starvation

#64
post #30

I live in Florida, and sometimes as I drive throughout the state and see the hundreds and hundreds (though it may be thousands) of oranges alongside the road I wonder just how many go to waste that could be sent to places in need, and then I wonder if there's other places that do the same... Most of the United States is uninhabited, so I always wonder how much vegetation is just sitting there that could feed others.…

There is a movie from a decade ago called "Life and Debt." It explores how international loans and aid have actually suppressed the local economies of the countries they tried to help. For example, chicken breast meat is very popular in the western world. Once they remove the white meat where does the rest of it go. What the producers can't sell domestically in the US or Canada they export to developing countries at…

Never though about how it could affect the local economy, but what about those who cannot afford the local economy... This gets a little further than I can honestly handle thinking about... But thanks for your input (and everyone else's for that matter, there's plenty I haven't seen before shared).

Re: Jackfruit could save millions from starvation

#65

I live in Florida, and sometimes as I drive throughout the state and see the hundreds and hundreds (though it may be thousands) of oranges alongside the road I wonder just how many go to waste that could be sent to places in need, and then I wonder if there's other places that do the same... Most of the United States is uninhabited, so I always wonder how much vegetation is just sitting there that could feed others.…

I think the other commenters have addressed the issue of "giving food the homeless" here, but as far as sending them to other countries...

Conveniently enough, I found a guide to orange carton dimensions and weights: http://www.south-africa-fruits.com/citrus-packaging.html So, let's see how much it costs to ship a carton of oranges from, say, Florida to Kenya (they could definitely use some citrus)! Oranges, while a pretty hardy fruit, have a shelf life of, at most, a few weeks at room temperature, according to multiple sources. I don't know if they'd be great sitting around in a cargo ship, with uncertain temperature and humidity changes for a month. So let's fly them over. Here's a calculator: http://www.worldfreightrates.com/en/freight

I calculated $154.74 - $171.02 per carton. That's quite a hefty premium on a carton of oranges (about 100 oranges, according to multiple sources). Sure, you might argue that a benevolent organization could come along and send bulk pallets (unfortunately, I couldn't find anything that would let me calculate the costs for a pallet of oranges), but I doubt you're going to find more than a 20% costs savings -- competition in this industry is stiff, and jet fuel is expensive.

In Boston, can buy navel oranges at my local grocery store for a dollar an orange, or less (I just checked Peapod!). So, yeah, it literally costs more to ship an orange across the ocean than oranges here cost, even with the relatively high cost of labor in the US. As wealthy Americans, we frequently pay for exotic foods (bananas in the middle of winter!) that cost very little to produce, and we're paying almost entirely for shipping. We don't think much about shipping costs, or think that it's unusual to get our food shipped to us, but that sort of thinking is dangerous.

It's far far cheaper to grow more food in starving countries than it is to ship them food. In Kenya, and all over Africa, food prices are much cheaper than they are here, even on open markets with relatively inefficient food delivery practices. It is cheaper (not to mention more environmentally sound!) to produce the food there, than it is to produce it here, and then transport it there. You make no sense. I mean, people in many African countries (let's be honest, Kenya is one of the wealthier ones) commonly feed their entire families on just a few dollars a day -- why not compost the fucking oranges, send them the money we would have spent on spilling fuel into the atmosphere, invigorate their economy, and let them eat like kings for the cost of flying over three oranges?

Saying "Now I understand there would be a cost in transporting these goods, as well as other factors, but still..." is just irresponsible. Yes, seeing oranges go to waste makes you feel bad. But the solution is not to ship it outside the relatively small radius where it makes environmental and economic sense to do so, when there are many other solutions for hunger that don't waste resources and kill the environment faster.

Re: Jackfruit could save millions from starvation

#66
post #62
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the same companies that sell you oranges could give some of those same oranges to the homeless? A lot of (mostly urban) businesses do, in fact, give food to help feed the homeless. In downtown San Diego, one or more Starbucks locations gives away leftover items to a women's services center to help provide a free coffee and pastry breakfast to indigent women. Presumably they get a write off for it, plus they o…

> There have been all kinds of problems caused in the past by food aid, such as women being given just enough baby formula for their baby that their own natural milk production dried up, then the free aid stopped. That's not what happened. It was Nestle actively encouraging hospitals to recommend baby formula, by bribing doctors and providing the formula for free. Then, when the mothers left the hospital, they were p…

Thank you.

I knew that, I just see little difference between this deadly marketing ploy and the outcomes of a lot of things that do more strictly merit the label of food aid. But perhaps the detail that this specific incident was a twisted marketing ploy will help others more readily comprehend how and why well meaning food aid can have unintended negative consequences -- in short, how they can have a dark side.

Re: Jackfruit could save millions from starvation

#68
post #30

I live in Florida, and sometimes as I drive throughout the state and see the hundreds and hundreds (though it may be thousands) of oranges alongside the road I wonder just how many go to waste that could be sent to places in need, and then I wonder if there's other places that do the same... Most of the United States is uninhabited, so I always wonder how much vegetation is just sitting there that could feed others.…

There is a movie from a decade ago called "Life and Debt." It explores how international loans and aid have actually suppressed the local economies of the countries they tried to help. For example, chicken breast meat is very popular in the western world. Once they remove the white meat where does the rest of it go. What the producers can't sell domestically in the US or Canada they export to developing countries at…

Well of course. Any attempt at helping one person hurts another person. If you give someone a free house, you put a builder out of work. If you give someone free food, you put a farmer out of work.

But I don't think it's a zero-sum game. I think the total utility generated by free food is worse than the disutility of the farmer losing his business. Now those people have money to spend on other things that they would have spent on food.

Protectionism benefits producers at the expense of consumers.

Of course ideally you wouldn't send food directly, but just money, which they could use to buy food, or whatever they need.

Re: Jackfruit could save millions from starvation

#69
post #63
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sheer diversity of language and culture in a place that is a third of the size of Europe. India "officially" has 122 languages, but over 780 have been counted. Going from one state to another is like going from one EU country to another; each of the 29 states has a different language, different writing-system, different culture, different cuisine, different traditions, different everything. Of course, there are s…

Fair enough. I realise that the Indian states are very different, much like different EU countries. I don't think the EU has quite as many languages (and dialects) as that, though there are more than many people think. Have a quick look at the list here, for example: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/saoghal/mion-chanain/en/ Many that previously existed have died out, of course. And as TV and radio became more prevelant, it d…

There are so many people that there will definitely be enough people to continue tradition. Usually, it is more convenient to marry someone who is from the same state, so that is what ends up happening (also: in, Arranged Marriage, the suitors are generally from the same state and maybe caste).

However, there is also a lot of intermingling...but I don't see it becoming one homogeneous race (like the Han Chinese) anytime soon.

Re: Jackfruit could save millions from starvation

#70
post #63
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sheer diversity of language and culture in a place that is a third of the size of Europe. India "officially" has 122 languages, but over 780 have been counted. Going from one state to another is like going from one EU country to another; each of the 29 states has a different language, different writing-system, different culture, different cuisine, different traditions, different everything. Of course, there are s…

Fair enough. I realise that the Indian states are very different, much like different EU countries. I don't think the EU has quite as many languages (and dialects) as that, though there are more than many people think. Have a quick look at the list here, for example: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/saoghal/mion-chanain/en/ Many that previously existed have died out, of course. And as TV and radio became more prevelant, it d…

It may at one point had so, but multiple nations had (sometimes recent) historical campaigns to define a national language and stamp out the rest.
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