Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software • Hacker News Board

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#331

Post by Lawtonfogle » Mon, Sep 21, 2015, 2:05 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #196

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we accept differential treatment based on one's having kids? What happens if the better punishment from the kid's perspective is actually worse for the parent?

I think that courts do take individual circumstances into account and must be allowed to do so. I don't deny at all that it can be unfair, but I don't think inflexible rules like three-strikes sort of laws or draconian minimum sentences that take away the judge's wiggle room are any fairer. A prison sentence for a parent is not just hurting the kid more, it's also much harsher on the parent. You're not only taking aw…

>I don't deny at all that it can be unfair, but I don't think inflexible rules like three-strikes sort of laws or draconian minimum sentences that take away the judge's wiggle room are any fairer.

So what happens when punishments begin to show an even stronger racial bias. For example, the argument that a white offender is safe to release because they are more likely to get a job which reduces their chance of committing a crime. Never mind that they are more likely to get a job because of institutionalize racism in our society.

>You're not only taking away their freedom, you're also taking away their kid.

A prison sentence for a rich individual hurts their income far more (and they are less likely to engage in crime once they are out due to higher education and better ability to find employment), so rich people should only be given a fraction of the sentence... the conclusion using this line of reasoning do seem to end poorly.

>The case of auto makers breaching environmental rules is much simpler though as a large fine

Except it attached a price tag to breaking the law, which fundamentally changes how businesses approach the law. Imagine what would happen if every crime was fined a fraction of what it earned you.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#332

Post by Lawtonfogle » Mon, Sep 21, 2015, 2:07 PM UTC

geon wrote: post #286

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we accept differential treatment based on one's having kids? What happens if the better punishment from the kid's perspective is actually worse for the parent?

Why should you discriminate?

My argument is that you shouldn't. Time in prison should be equal, regardless if you are a poor homeless guy who committed the crime or a filthy rich mutual fund manager whose fund will lose massive amounts of value.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#333

Post by fauigerzigerk » Mon, Sep 21, 2015, 3:31 PM UTC

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #331

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that courts do take individual circumstances into account and must be allowed to do so. I don't deny at all that it can be unfair, but I don't think inflexible rules like three-strikes sort of laws or draconian minimum sentences that take away the judge's wiggle room are any fairer. A prison sentence for a parent is not just hurting the kid more, it's also much harsher on the parent. You're not only taking aw…

>I don't deny at all that it can be unfair, but I don't think inflexible rules like three-strikes sort of laws or draconian minimum sentences that take away the judge's wiggle room are any fairer. So what happens when punishments begin to show an even stronger racial bias. For example, the argument that a white offender is safe to release because they are more likely to get a job which reduces their chance of committ…

>So what happens when punishments begin to show an even stronger racial bias. For example, the argument that a white offender is safe to release because they are more likely to get a job which reduces their chance of committing a crime

That is but one possible argument of many. A judge could also make the case that locking up hugely more members of one racial group than of others destroys the social fabric of society, creates even more crime in the next generation and is ultimately worse for everyone.

So yes, you could ask many questions of that sort and you are right that giving judges room to weigh individual circumstances can go both ways. In my opinion, not having that wiggle room is cruel and relies on a completely unjustified confidence in the ability of law makers to forsee all the situations that might come up.

>Except it attached a price tag to breaking the law, which fundamentally changes how businesses approach the law. Imagine what would happen if every crime was fined a fraction of what it earned you.

Banning an auto maker for 12 months in one particular country has a price tag too. Every punishment of a corporation can be distilled down to a mere price tag. Whether or not the price tag of a ban is higher or lower than any fine depends on the amount fined.

There are many problems with outright bans. It is a very inflexible and crude tool. It does not allow for a gradual and measured punishment that fits the extent of the violation. It does not bring money into government coffers or into victims pockets. It cannot be applied equally to every company in the same way if at all. You cannot simply shut down banks, utilities or OS vendors without destroying the entire economy. We do need some degree of pragmatism that limits collateral damage.

Also, we have to acknowledge that corporations are not people after all. The corporation doesn't take the decision to violate some law. Executives do. So if you want to go beyond a price tag for certain kinds of violations then you need criminal prosecution of individual executives on top of fines.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#334

Post by heywire » Mon, Sep 21, 2015, 4:52 PM UTC

jhallenworld wrote: post #110

spydum wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, on second thought, they probably confused secondary air injection ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection ) with EGR. It's very possible they were explaining secondary air, which doesn't compress exhaust gas, but does inject air into the exhaust gas to help burn more efficiently (not clear on the mechanism, I always thought it was a method to improve catalytic converter efficiency at startup).

The usual failure mode is that it sounds like a loud vacuum cleaner for ~90 seconds after cold start up.. not sure about clunking.

Exactly. Cheverolet Trailblazers are well known for this (I owned one and had to replace said air injector)

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#335

Post by rconti » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 5:09 AM UTC

brc wrote: post #312

Raphmedia wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, as much as a cheat it is, I'm happy that those bikes can go quiet on slow (city) streets but as loud as possible on the highway (increase security and swag).

Loud Harleys frustrate and annoy me. Most owners seem to remove the factory pipes and fit the loudest ones possible. It's not true this helps on the highway. In my car, which has double glazed glass, you can't hear a bit until it's right outside the window. When I'm walking along with the dog and kids, an open pipe Harley riding past is particularly not safe, because it scares the crap out of them. One idling Harley…

I'm a motorcyclist too, and straight piped Harleys make me stabby. I don't believe they're louder on the highway. I believe they're louder whenever they're within earshot of any place where people congregate without earplugs (cafes, restaurants, pedestrian areas), whereupon the scumbag on the seat finds it necessary to go wide-open throttle to show off how terrible their bike sounds. It never fails.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#336

Post by rconti » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 5:17 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #91

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #20

I don't understand how California detected this. The one time I had to take my 2010 Jetta turbo diesel for a smog check, the inspection was ENTIRELY visual. The inspector did not insert a probe into the tailpipe. He did plug the test rig into the OBD-II port under the steering column and turn the key to the accessory position (presumably to electronically capture the VIN), but that's it. I even asked him at the end i…

California's CARB is the gestapo of car emissions. If anyone has the motivation, expertise, and evil disposition to detect this, it's the state of California. I've never lived in a state like this. Bi-yearly tailpipe sniffs and visual inspections. Even if your car's emissions are cleaner than their ridiculous requirements, they'll still fail your car if it has parts on it that are not stock. I ended up having to sell…

You're not wrong, but tailpipe tests were quite common in many states. In CA, like other states, they're being phased out.

Nevermind the fact that California has no safety inspection, unlike many Eastern states in particular. It's fairly silly to call CA the "gestapo" although they are more aggressive about emissions than anyone else, as you mentioned.

I am a driving and motorcyclist enthusiast, and have modified cars and regularly participate in track days. Somehow I've never had a problem with CA emissions, nor have most of my like-minded friends. It's just not that bad, and it does a lot of good.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#337

Post by rconti » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 5:22 AM UTC

xxpor wrote: post #260

kuschku wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More interestingly: Did the German TÜV not detect this? They have even stricter rules.

Europe doesn't have stupid emissions rules biased against diesels.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/diesel-dominance-... http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/14/nine-out-... http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34257424 http://www.hybridcars.com/will-america-avoid-europes-clean-d...

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#338

Post by rconti » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 5:24 AM UTC

flippyhead wrote: post #37

I don't quite understand how the car can known it's getting an emissions test. I thought you just pulled up and revved the engine. Or do they plug the computer in nowadays?

First of all, that's not how it works. Secondly, being in neutral and revving the engine seems like a pretty obvious red flag for "hey, maybe I'm being tested for emissions" in the scenario you mention.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#339

Post by rconti » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 5:30 AM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #247

meatysnapper wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it's where they are built. I assume most US-bound VWs are from Mexico or US proper due to NAFTA and auto-import regulations.

Yes, VWs made outside of Germany are basically junk.

As was my German-built Corrado in the 90s. Of course, is that stopping me from buying another one this year? Nope, it just took me 15 years ago to get over it.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#340

Post by _nedR » Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 8:52 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #327

brc wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's just wrong, motorbikes are an important part of any transportation mix. When the answer is 'ban it' there is something wrong.

Wait, why are motorcycles important? They're inherently less efficient, netting out roughly the same environmental impact --- assuming modern motorcycles! --- but without the ability to carry passengers or significant amounts of cargo.

Maybe in the west where motorcycles are more of a leisure transport than a mode of commute, but in developing countries bikes with small engines in the ball park of 100 cc (the honda cub for example) are definitely some of the most efficient modes of transportation. In India i could get a bike that could comfortably get around 60kmpl in normal driving conditions ( 3 bikes with 6 passengers total would be about the same as a prius at about 1/10th the cost). And in a congested city, no other mode of transport beats it (unless the city has a very well connected metro rail transportation)