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Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

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Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#281
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're recirculating exhaust back into the engine, you're able to attempt to reburn any fuel that wasn't burned on the first pass, while also exposing any emissions to higher temperatures on the second pass (higher temperatures = easier to break down when those emissions reach the emissions control system).

If you're recirculating exhaust back into the engine, you're able to attempt to reburn any fuel that wasn't burned on the first pass That's not what EGRs do. EGRs take exhaust, which is relatively inert (combustion having already taken place) and injects it into the combustion chamber to lower combustion temperatures . The reason you want low temperatures is that NOx (nitrogen oxides) form at high temperatures.

That's traditional "external" egr. Many newer engines have an "internal" egr implementation, which just changes valve timing so that some amount of the combustion products are never evacuated from the cylinder in the first place. With cam phasing becoming commonplace, internal egr can be implemented without adding any additional parts, and is thus cheaper. So the "recirculation" part of egr is becoming more and more of a misnomer.

Personally I like internal egr because external egr systems have a tendency to clog in either the passageways or the solenoid controlled valve. EGR valve sticking is a common cause of cars stalling when slowing to a stop after cruising at medium-high speed. And even without the stalling egr is a common cause for check engine lights and smog test failures.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a motorcyclist and I'm downvoting this fallacy. If this were seriously the case then good beginner bikes like the Ninja 250 and Honda CBR250R would be unsafe, especially for new riders. Enjoy your loud pipes if you like (I do on my throaty Aprilia) but don't pretend they give you any safety benefit to balance the annoyance it causes some people.

I too am a motorcyclist (85K miles of sport bike riding, Sunday morning ride to Pt Reyes was a lot of that, current stable is r1200gs and wr250r). I despise loud pipes, just frigging hate them. But I live in deer country (Santa Cruz mountains) and I've hit a deer at speed on the GS (did not wipe out, lifted the front end and had my front tire hit it square in the hind quarters, spun the deer around, I dropped the fro…

I despise overly loud pipes - like, you have to scream loud. But,Ive been riding a bike a lot as well. Way too quiet exhausts (like EU is constantly pushing on us) are dangerous - ive seen it myself - my dad with a louder exhaust passes with no issues and I, silently, get cut off and nearly run off the road by a guy that assumes that mirrors are for pussies. It happened quite a few times already.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have that, It's called OBDII. Besides error codes, OBDII has 8 emissions monitors. In California all cars after 2001 are checked by means of a visual and these 8 readiness monitors: catalyst, heated catalyst, EVAP, SAI, O2, O2 Heater, EGR/VVT, AC Source: I work on my two Audis

If you need to, you can beat most O2 monitors with a 555, most O2 heater monitors with a $0.45 resistor (or an O2 heater from a neutered O2 sensor), an EGR sensor monitor with a diode and couple resistors. Many catalyst monitors are just downstream O2 sensors that detect cycling (another 555 will defeat). OBD2 monitoring, without fairly careful visual inspection, isn't a full solution. It's used because it's cheap, e…

Until recently O2 sensors were not used on diesels. There are a host of reasons for this, one of the main ones being that until recently, diesel fuel in most places had high levels of sulfur, which is a known poison for Pt and some of the other metals which are used in both catalysts and O2 sensors.

As for EGR monitoring, most OBD2 systems I've seen monitor the presence of the egr solenoid by looking for the back emf. So you'd need an inductor or a solenoid for that. Additionally, they usually will often do a test of the manifold pressure while cycling the valve, to confirm the flow rate (obviously this can only be done of the engine in question has a MAP sensor). And if the MAP sensor is the primary sensor for doing fuel monitoring (ie, no MAF sensor), then there would be no easy way of defeating this monitor without messing up the normal performance of the engine. So in my experience, defeating EGR and passing the EGR related OBD2 monitors is non trivial. But then, since there is usually an allowance (in the current CA smog check schemes) for some of the monitors to not have completed running while still passing the test, it doesn't matter too much in practice (can't disconnect the EGR valve, but the egr readiness monitor is moot). The EGR monitor is usually the last one to run anyway, so this makes passing the smog check with what would otherwise be a egr related OBD2 failure, fairly easy.

Beating O2 monitors is actually much more difficult in practice. First of all, an increasing number of O2 sensors in cars are wideband sensors which don't output the traditional switching signal one could simulate with a 555. Even some older cars use wideband O2 sensors (I have personal experience with two MY 1998 Toyotas [california cars] for which this is the case). Secondly, even if you do have all narrowband O2 sensors on a car, the way the O2 monitors work is that the downstream (of the catalyst) O2 sensor(s) output is compared to the upstream (of the catalyst) O2 sensor(s) to see, not whether the O2 sensor is working, but that the catalyst efficiency is above some threshold. Simply simulating one or both signals with a naive switching circuit will trip the catalyst efficiency monitor. And why would you want to disable the upstream O2 sensor(s) anyway, it's main job is to provide an error signal to the fuel system which would otherwise be a completely open loop system? Without a working feedback loop your fuel system won't be running very well, and usually falls back to a super conservative fuel mapping because of the danger of unknowingly running lean (obviously a concern for gas engines only, not diesels).

Defeating OBD2 monitoring in these sorts of ways is not an issue in any meaningful sense. Enthusiasts often will replace their ECUs wholesale with an aftermarket one. When the ecu hardware and its programming is completely outside of the manufacturer's control, who can say anything about the validity of it's outputs for emissions compliance purposes?

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#284
post #26

When I last bought a VW (2008) I was concerned due to a clunking noise after first starting it up and driving a few miles; I called the VW service dept and they explained that there was a compressor which captured exhaust fumes and released them at a lower rate for the first few miles of each journey -- to help them meet EPA emissions standards. I was assured there was nothing to worry about. While this is a differen…

That sounds more like a Diesel Particulate Filter and regenerator ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter#Rege... ), which is pretty much the opposite of gaming. To keep the black clouds of soot that have sullied the name of diesel from forming, most modern diesels are designed to capture the soot until the engine gets warm enough to burn off the soot, at which point said soot is passed back through the engine and incinerated. Or, there's some mix of heater and catalyst to burn off the soot in the regenerator itself. You're basically holding onto the waste until you can efficiently deal with it in an environmentally clean manner.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#285

I can't believe such a large company would cheat like that. I think there must be more to this. Maybe a rogue employee?

GM knowingly declined to fix the safety problems with their ignition switches. This really killed people, not just violated some arbitrary local emissions number.

You are so right. GM didn't just kill a few people, they killed over 120 people:

   General Motors agreed to pay $900 million as
   part of a Justice Department investigation
   into its failure to fix a deadly ignition
   switch defect blamed for more than 120 deaths.
That is a shockingly high number. http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/17/gm-justi...

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about how to punish not if. If you can punish a parent in a way that does not affect the child, surely that has to be preferred way of doing it.

So we accept differential treatment based on one's having kids? What happens if the better punishment from the kid's perspective is actually worse for the parent?

Why should you discriminate?

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google said "random stalls" were kind of endemic to Ducatis. :P Didn't know it was related to the fuel mapping! I had a 1098 which would occasionally (maybe once per month) randomly stall at 0% throttle when braking to a stop. I had a full Termignoni system + race ECU, though. California doesn't do emissions testing on bikes, surprisingly! I had to put a Power Commander on my R1 because of the aforementioned lean spo…

I can assure you that the engine on the R1 doesn't chug along at sport bike speeds though ;)

Yes, certainly not. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSsP-itS8qI

I commuted to work in San Francisco on literbikes, but on weekends I would head south and open them up.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#288
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More interestingly: Did the German TÜV not detect this? They have even stricter rules.

Europe doesn't have stupid emissions rules biased against diesels.

On the contrary, California emission standards held diesel passenger vehicles to the same standards as gasoline/petrol passenger vehicles. Whereas in Europe, diesel emission standards were much more lax compared to their petrol counterparts.

I suppose one could say that being more concerned with the more directly harmful and smog forming emissions(NOx and PM) over CO2 would constitute 'bias' against diesels. But, conversely, there's a rather compelling argument that the more lax European diesel regulations spurred diesel adoption and protect their domestic manufacturers.

https://www3.nd.edu/~jthurk/Papers/MMT.pdf

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the cars can't pass smog testing without cheating, then they also need to be forced to buy each and every one of them back. $18 billion sounds reasonable to me. This needs to hurt .

I'm sure the patch will allow them to pass the tests. It'll just reduce driving performance as well.

Likely true; the problem with that is the owner ends up with a car with lower specs than they agreed to when they bought it. The owner of the car needs to be compensated.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it difficult to understand how failing a car with clean emissions levels, thereby forcing it out of the state, contributes to cleaning up smog.

If it's forced out of the state the smog isn't California's problem. California's emission regulations aren't meant to clean up other states.

In this case they do end up helping the other states...
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