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The ‘effective altruists’

lrb.co.uk

81–90 of 96 posts

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#81
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you're saying that when a charity provides bed nets, it causes individuals to make the irrational and sub-optimal choice of using a bed net without purchasing it. If your choice is between buying a bed net, or taking one that is available for free, the rational and optimal choice for you, if we only consider that choice itself, is to take the free one. Isn't that obvious? But this is a first-order effect, and I'm t…

The idea that people in sub-Saharan Africa don't know how how to create things through work because they were given so much seems crazy to me. I was given a roof over my head, free education, food, security, and medical care by my parents and I didn't have to do anything for that. I never saw our house being built, nor food being grown, or took a class in economics(by 18 I took several later). By 18 I still understoo…

> The idea that people in sub-Saharan Africa don't know how how to create things through work because they were given so much seems crazy to me.

You're quite correct that many people (including me, and apparently you as well) are able to understand wealth creation even though they were given a lot of wealth for free. So it's not always true that giving things to people makes them unable to understand how to create wealth through work.

But your example and mine are different from the sub-Saharan Africa example in an important way: we were children. The stuff we were given was stuff we could not reasonably have earned or traded for for ourselves. A child is not (yet) able to create enough wealth to pay for all the food, or shelter, or education he needs. That's why children are raised by parents, who can create the wealth needed to provide those things, until the children grow up and are able to do it for themselves. And if the parents are smart (mine were, and it sounds like yours were too), they will gradually introduce the children to the idea that all that wealth has to be earned somehow. My parents made me take summer jobs as soon as I was old enough to do so legally. (Even before that, they made me do household chores to earn my allowance.) So children, if they're being raised properly, aren't really taught that everything is spontaneously created.

The sub-Saharan Africans certainly do a lot of things for themselves, that's true. But it seems to me that, unlike (properly raised) children, there are things they do not do for themselves, that they reasonably could. Why? More on this below.

> All of the evidence I've seen shows that communities given free nets do better than ones that pay a nominal fee.

Bear in mind, again, that I'm talking about second order effects. I have already admitted that, to first order, if the choice is between paying for bed nets and getting them for free, it's obviously rational to get them for free. The evidence you describe supports that.

But the evidence you describe does not answer a deeper question: why do any of these communities need charity at all? If they do know how to create things through work, why can't they make their own bed nets? Or make something else that they can trade for them at a net profit? Why do they need to have these things given to them?

This is the second order effect I'm talking about. These people don't seem (to me) to have any idea how to generalize their ability to do some particular things that create wealth, in order to create more wealth that would obviously benefit them. They are, it seems, able to maintain their houses, knit their clothes, and grow food; but they can't figure out how to make bed nets (or something they can trade for them), even though the benefit to them in malaria prevention is obvious and huge? The only solution is to have bed nets given to them?

This disconnect is what makes me suspect that the provision of things like bed nets by charity has affected these people's mindset. They don't seem to view wealth creation as a general thing; they seem to think that they can only create some kinds of wealth, while other kinds of wealth (like bed nets) can only be provided to them by others.

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#82
post #9

What I like about the effective altruist movement is the research they provide. What I don't like is the cultish behavior, and inherent bias that what I think is good is "universally" good. Effective altruism is nothing more than a rebranding of utilitarianism, and suffers from the same moral quandaries. Should I kill someone if it is the best way to decrease child mortality rates in Africa? Should we all quit our jo…

Many of the perceived problems with utilitarianism result from confusing "utility" with wealth, or in otherwise simplifying what optimizing human flourishing would actually look like in practice. Although reasonable people disagree on many principles of moral thought, a point of near-consensus is that if all other things are equal, we should try to reduce needless suffering as much as possible. For a great and nuance…

> we should try to reduce needless suffering as much as possible.

Killing everyone, as fast as possible is the best way to minimize suffering in the long run.

Not sure that's what you're looking forward to...

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#83
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that people in sub-Saharan Africa don't know how how to create things through work because they were given so much seems crazy to me. I was given a roof over my head, free education, food, security, and medical care by my parents and I didn't have to do anything for that. I never saw our house being built, nor food being grown, or took a class in economics(by 18 I took several later). By 18 I still understoo…

> The idea that people in sub-Saharan Africa don't know how how to create things through work because they were given so much seems crazy to me. You're quite correct that many people (including me, and apparently you as well) are able to understand wealth creation even though they were given a lot of wealth for free. So it's not always true that giving things to people makes them unable to understand how to create we…

I have heard that a reason for a lack of wealth building is because the countries often lack basic infrastructure: peace, rule of law, roads, capital, etc.

I could hypothesize that another problem could be a lack of density combined with bad travel infrastructure.

Of course, your theory could be the major contributor. Or it could be a minor or non-contributor. Because I don't know, I understand the previous poster's request for a reference.

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#84
post #2

I've read this book together with the two books about Effective Altruism bei Peter Singer (The Life You Can Save and The Most Good You Can Do), and I have to say these books have really changed my life. I know it sounds cheesy, but I've never read books that had such a lasting influence on me. Those books provide just the right rational and scientific arguments and have shown me with how much cognitive dissonance I,…

I'd argue that being an effective altruist actually makes you less rational. As part of your genetic fitness, your brain is optimized for survival, reproduction, and keeping your children alive. If you're in the middle class and you give your money away then it goes against those objectives.

I agree with this but our status as a 'social species' is a factor too. Empathy goes beyond just your family.

Giving away money and thus 'helping the group' akin to older elephants protecting the entire herd might flip that feel-good switch in the brain.

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#85
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The objectives of "your genes" do not have to be your objectives. So you can be rational, but have different goals from what you were "meant" to (for some value of the word "meant").

Well perhaps that is true but then you will experience a lot more mental incongruity. For example, gay and transgendered people have much higher suicide attempt rates. The more you deviate from traditional family values, the unhappier you will likely feel. There is a big correlation I bet.

Traditional family values as we understand them have not always been how families worked.

Traditions can change. Traditions that don't serve you any purpose personally should be discarded.

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#86
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By extension of that logic, the brain is not geared for reason, which I think is probably true.

Well I think the fundamental issue is that it is impossible to rationally prove which values are more important than other ones. You have to almost arbitrarily decide. For example you could hypothetically design an artificial intelligence that is optimized for creating paperclips. As a person, you could decide your life goal is to drink as much glue as possible or something stupid like that. But since it goes against…

Survival instinct isn't the same as reproductive isntinct though.

I have the will to survive but zero desire to have children.

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#87
post #83
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that people in sub-Saharan Africa don't know how how to create things through work because they were given so much seems crazy to me. You're quite correct that many people (including me, and apparently you as well) are able to understand wealth creation even though they were given a lot of wealth for free. So it's not always true that giving things to people makes them unable to understand how to create we…

I have heard that a reason for a lack of wealth building is because the countries often lack basic infrastructure: peace, rule of law, roads, capital, etc. I could hypothesize that another problem could be a lack of density combined with bad travel infrastructure. Of course, your theory could be the major contributor. Or it could be a minor or non-contributor. Because I don't know, I understand the previous poster's…

All of the factors you cite (I think bad travel infrastructure is just a special case of bad infrastructure in general) certainly contribute. International organizations measure all kinds of things like this; here, for example, are the World Bank's governance metrics:

http://info.worldbank.org/governance/wgi/index.aspx#home

However, I have not seen research into the reasons why certain countries do badly on these metrics that hypothesizes any real cause other than lack of charity--wealthy countries just aren't doing enough to help poor countries. The possibility that charity itself might be a contributing cause is never, as far as I can tell, considered. Which just puts us right back to the original question.

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#88
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is there is no utility function and choices are path dependent.

-Path dependence has no relevance. You are still going to make a single choice at each event no matter if the choices depend on previous history or not. -"there is no utility function" is an odd claim. A function can obviously be defined, so what's the objection? Note that in any case there is an implicit utility function for which each action you do take has the maximum utility. Of course, there's the recursive prob…

The recursive problem is the problem. If the utility function is arbitrary, then utilitarianism is just a tautology.

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#89
post #65
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only literally impossible in an abstract mathematical world where the rule is somehow manifest as a law of nature. In the real world, the rule can be nothing more than a belief that is applied by individuals in their decision making. One can easily see how this could lead to a wide range of perverse outcomes, primarily because the idea of a 'utility function' is not a real thing in the world and cannot be univer…

So I think you are drawing a distinction between doing what you expect to lead to the greatest increase in utility, and doing what leads to the largest mathematical expectation increase in utility. You're right that the latter is not actually possible, and the former could possibly lead to worse outcomes than following the rules. But this is not a stable equilibrium. 1. If you discover that you're so bad at predictin…

Over what time frame?

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#90
post #2

I've read this book together with the two books about Effective Altruism bei Peter Singer (The Life You Can Save and The Most Good You Can Do), and I have to say these books have really changed my life. I know it sounds cheesy, but I've never read books that had such a lasting influence on me. Those books provide just the right rational and scientific arguments and have shown me with how much cognitive dissonance I,…

I'd argue that being an effective altruist actually makes you less rational. As part of your genetic fitness, your brain is optimized for survival, reproduction, and keeping your children alive. If you're in the middle class and you give your money away then it goes against those objectives.

But rationality isn't about effectiveness in achieving the things you are evolutionarily optimised for, because those things don't necessarily line up with the things you want! There's no a priori reason to value evolutionary goals over goals you pick for yourself. That would be an appeal to nature.

If helping other people is really something you care about and value intrinsically, then rationality is about finding the most effective ways and means of helping other people.

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