Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations • Hacker News Board

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#121

Post by StillBored » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 8:59 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #7

Two things: I went back to my original employer and said I had a new job offer for $70k, and I didn't want to negotiate, I just wanted their final, last ditch offer That's an incredibly awesome way to have a huge target painted on your back. A lot of employers get really pissed at this tactic but won't say so to your face. They will gladly give you that new salary for just enough time to get a (cheaper) replacement o…

Or they just fax your current company as part of a credit check, requesting salary. I had that happen, during the process a few years ago at a place I decided to stay at after they made a counter offer (that I didn't request). A couple days after I told them I would stay, I got a call from HR asking me what I thought they should do with the fax asking for my current salary (AKA if it was a legitimate request for a lone approval or something).

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#122

Post by Bamafan » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 9:09 PM UTC

monknomo wrote: post #21

ITGleek wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No doubt. I actually stepped away, because the upward trajectory, means your performance has to match the pay. As said before in the thread, asking OVER the top - simply means HR finds your replacement faster. Appeasement is what started Hitler's demise. Those who do not learn from the past, will repeat the failures in the future. However, its like a skill of knowing the timing of things - how I got this far, myself.

I think the dirty secret is that the 150k jobs aren't really always harder than the 60k jobs, and sometimes they even treat you better because your social status is greater

ding ding ding

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#123

Post by Amezarak » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 9:54 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #108

avitzurel wrote: post #93

As an employer and an employee I know this much. Never ever use another offer as leverage, both the employer and the employee need to come to the table with good intentions. Asking for more money is usual business, both for employers and employees, but with more money you are asking you need to explain why you are worth more money, why I as your employer need to pay you more. For most part, when someone goes after ot…

If I were taking an offer in hand to my current employer, it would probably only be to help explain why I'm leaving, if asked. If I asked for anything at all, it would be on behalf of those who are remaining. I already made the decision to leave when I started looking for other jobs. I also refuse to give out my salary history in interviews. I think it just obscures the main issue. The employer needs to pay the emplo…

> The fact that you have a new offer in hand means that you were already dissatisfied enough to start looking for alternatives in the first place. Remember that? Spitting out extra money only after you reveal you haven't been happy does not alter the fact that the company has not been making proactive efforts to keep you satisfied.

Not always. Sometimes it is just about the money.

I left a job I loved very much because another job essentially landed in my lap offering 25k more. It's a lot less challenging, the skills aren't really transferable, and the work environment kind of sucks, but 25k is 25k.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#124

Post by crpatino » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 10:27 PM UTC

inglor wrote: post #35

gue5t wrote: post #5

This article is about salary negotiations, not software-engineering negotiations. I was hoping this would be about negotiating feature sets and timelines, which would actually be relevant to the set of people working on software (rather than being relevant to the set of people trying to make money; of course there is overlap).

The key difference is that software engineering negotiations aren't adversarial and no one wants you to overestimate or underestimate. There are numerous books on estimating software time, I recommend Fred Brook's The Mythical Man Month if you're looking for a classic.

> software engineering negotiations aren't adversarial

There's a certain book you should go and read... I think the fact that it does exist is proof itself of how adversarial relationships can get in Software Engineering: http://www.amazon.com/Death-March-Edition-Edward-Yourdon/dp/...

Metaphorically speaking, the only way a negotiation does not end up in a fight is when one side sucker-punches the other.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#125

Post by raphar » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 10:36 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #115

raphar wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A thing that I always wondered: What gains a manager by being cheap about his subordinates' salaries? Do they like to feel power over the hopeless guys? is there another thing?

> A thing that I always wondered: What gains a manager by being cheap about his subordinates' salaries? A manager's job is to manage resources to provide the firm with the maximum benefit for the least cost, and salary is one of the more obvious non-fuzzy components on either the cost or benefit side of that equation.

I understand that, but how the company organize itself to reward managers with that kind of goals ? What kind of mechanisms sets in place to force managers to minimize expenses happily?

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#126

Post by vellum » Fri, Sep 18, 2015, 12:13 AM UTC

fractalsea wrote: post #77

> know your worth How? I think this wouldn't be so hard if you are in the valley (or other large tech cities in the US), or targeting large companies (Glassdoor). But how do you do this if you are in a different situation?

In addition to Glassdoor, try data.jobsintech.io (H1B) or angel.co (startups) for salary information. Go on indeed.com, and look for companies around your area to see if any are in those dbs.

After a while, you should start seeing some common ranges between regular software engineers and senior engineers. Use those as a starting point in negotiations. Interview at enough places (10+), and you should see what your market value is.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#127

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Sep 18, 2015, 1:14 AM UTC

srtjstjsj wrote: post #90

SilasX wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why do they require copious documentation of your wages (sorry, salaries) when you apply for a mortgage if they can just look it up?

My mortgage lender asked me for my access code to Work Number. What shocks me is that Work Number is legally allowed to publish data without the individual's authorization

[deleted]

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#128

Post by mixmastamyk » Fri, Sep 18, 2015, 1:16 AM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #82

joezydeco wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My take (as it was explained to me by HR) is that currently it's used as a way to let decisionmakers (landlords, bank loan officers, court systems, etc) get verification of employment and/or salary via mutual agreement. You, as the wage-earner, grant an access key to a landlord for example. He then can get quick verification of your application information without wasting HR's time. But I trust the credit bureaus as…

Then why do they require copious documentation of your wages (sorry, salaries) when you apply for a mortgage if they can just look it up?

Your lender may be or have been behind the times.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#129

Post by mixmastamyk » Fri, Sep 18, 2015, 1:30 AM UTC

cpwright wrote: post #74

Bahamut wrote: post #33

I dislike this greatly, and it doesn't seem like a sustainable path - if the market crashes, and his/her skills don't match the compensation level, then it will backfire greatly & catch up to him/her. I was able to boost my salary to $160k in 2 1/2 years from a starting salary of $50k, but through tireless improvement of my craft (self-studying, experimentation, and contributions to major open source libraries, inclu…

Its better to make the extra cash in the meantime and then have to take a pay cut than to not have the money at all. I will say that by the third time he's demanding more money with another offer; they should have said, "good luck." Matching once makes sense, matching twice, maybe. But the third time, you should just let him go.

You may have missed the part where he was quite underpaid.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#130

Post by Daishiman » Fri, Sep 18, 2015, 2:24 AM UTC

mkaziz wrote: post #22

Wow I would not want to work for or with this guy. Someone who blatantly lies like that will hardly make a good teammate or a boss.

And are you sure your employer is not lying his ass off when they say that they "can't pay any more than X"?