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We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

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Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#91

Post by georgerobinson »

pc86 wrote: post #82
rorykoehler wrote: post #24

As a non-CS graduate looking for my first full-time job as a Junior Developer I can only ask one thing of prospective employers. Please give clear feedback that will help give direction to the candidate if you reject them. I have done a number of code challenges and while I don't mind doing the challenges (I look at them as training) and I can always create a working solution there is nothing worse than receiving a s…

Others have replied and given you the legal and logistical reasons why non-employers will not tell you why you were rejected, but there's another one: it's not their job. If I run a web development studio, it is not my job to assist in the personal development of people I've decided (for whatever reason) are not a good fit. Yes, logistically that's a pain in the ass if I send 1 offer letter and 12 explanations about…

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Likewise, it is not the job of your prospective clients (the scenario in which you run a web shop) to give you feedback over why they chose a competitor over you. Perhaps you don't even know why. Wouldn't it be great though to have constructive feedback that would help you win future pitches?

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#92

Post by geebee »

rorykoehler wrote: post #24

As a non-CS graduate looking for my first full-time job as a Junior Developer I can only ask one thing of prospective employers. Please give clear feedback that will help give direction to the candidate if you reject them. I have done a number of code challenges and while I don't mind doing the challenges (I look at them as training) and I can always create a working solution there is nothing worse than receiving a s…

This is a big problem for the industry. A developer essentially takes exams, under stressful conditions, every time he or she applies for a new job. However, the developer rarely gets any feedback whatsoever, and often gets a one-line brush off.

I completely understand why. Two very good reasons have been identified in the comments here: 1) it opens the company to litigation, and 2) the company's goal isn't to provide feedback, it's to find good candidates.

Here's the problem, though - none of this makes things any better for a candidate who spent weeks or even months studying, took hours of in person exams, and is brushed off with a one line "not a match at this time". And after a few of these experiences, the candidate starts to give up on trying. Tech interview exams may deter people from interviewing, and may play a role in why developers with potential give up on the field entirely.

http://www.fastcompany.com/3043082/most-creative-people/why-...

High tech employers almost universally claim that there is a severe shortage of candidates, and yet here we have a process that may be deterring developers from interviewing or even remaining in the field. There are solutions out there, but we're not going to get to them by saying "oh well, it would open us up to litigation, and that's not my job anyway". Well, true, you don't owe anyone a job or feedback, but the world sure doesn't owe high tech employers all the developers they want to hire either.

So far, I really don't get the sense that the high tech industry has come to terms with the depth of its own role in why they are having so much trouble hiring.

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#93

Post by ScottWhigham »

rorykoehler wrote: post #79
robohamburger wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think that if a company is going to have an arduous interview process they should try to make it positive one if only for their own benefit because people talk. Having reviewed code samples I can say that it can be exhausting trying to write constructive feedback to the person who wrote it. It is much easier to give a more dispassionate summary to the recruiter than one that would be appropriate to give to the p…

The best ones I got are just commented inline and sent back. Easy to do as you go through it and very helpful.

The downsides of doing this as an interviewer should be easy: if the person disagrees with your comments/ideas, then what? Do you spend the 15-45 minutes crafting the perfect reply email ("I have to defend myself!"), or does the candidate get upset and email your boss with a nasty message like "That guy Scott - he's loony. Know nothing jerk. His comments were wrong - see this MSFT article from 2004 that shows why he is wrong, wrong, wrong!"?

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#94

Post by rorykoehler »

rasz_pl wrote: post #88
rorykoehler wrote: post #24

As a non-CS graduate looking for my first full-time job as a Junior Developer I can only ask one thing of prospective employers. Please give clear feedback that will help give direction to the candidate if you reject them. I have done a number of code challenges and while I don't mind doing the challenges (I look at them as training) and I can always create a working solution there is nothing worse than receiving a s…

Your mistake was doing them in the first place. Code challenges and whiteboards are for cattle and cubicle cannon fodder at big companies. Show them your github, credits in some os software, side projects, dont be another no name code monkey.

I'm thinking of taking this approach in future. I might not be the perfect dev yet but I have taught myself to build reasonably complex apps in 18 months and already have a track record of developing tech solutions to business problems. As a Junior dev I expect to be taught best practices and to be continually learning on a very steep curve for the foreseeable future. The fact that I have gotten this far on my own steam should say enough about who I am. The interview is useful purely from a cultural fit perspective.

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#95

Post by [deleted] »

rasz_pl wrote: post #88
rorykoehler wrote: post #24

As a non-CS graduate looking for my first full-time job as a Junior Developer I can only ask one thing of prospective employers. Please give clear feedback that will help give direction to the candidate if you reject them. I have done a number of code challenges and while I don't mind doing the challenges (I look at them as training) and I can always create a working solution there is nothing worse than receiving a s…

Your mistake was doing them in the first place. Code challenges and whiteboards are for cattle and cubicle cannon fodder at big companies. Show them your github, credits in some os software, side projects, dont be another no name code monkey.

[deleted]

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#96

Post by rorykoehler »

ScottWhigham wrote: post #93
rorykoehler wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best ones I got are just commented inline and sent back. Easy to do as you go through it and very helpful.

The downsides of doing this as an interviewer should be easy: if the person disagrees with your comments/ideas, then what? Do you spend the 15-45 minutes crafting the perfect reply email ("I have to defend myself!"), or does the candidate get upset and email your boss with a nasty message like "That guy Scott - he's loony. Know nothing jerk. His comments were wrong - see this MSFT article from 2004 that shows why he…

I have always replied with an honestly grateful thank you mail. It's a shame a few insufferable idiots would have the power to change the behaviour of well meaning persons.

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#97

Post by llimllib »

ctide wrote: post #42
llimllib wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also if I were employed at a good company but was possibly interested in leaving, I would never leave it for a contract-to-perm position.

Do you doubt your skills? Why are you interviewing if you're employed at a good company? I hear this position often when people talking about contract-to-perm, and I just don't see it. If you're good at what you do, and people enjoy working with you, why wouldn't you take a contract to perm position? The only reasons I can see are that you are afraid you don't get the job (well, then you wouldn't have been a good fit…

> Do you doubt your skills?

Not in my field, but perhaps the CtH position doesn't actually want quite what I am good at, and we didn't figure that out beforehand.

> Why are you interviewing if you're employed at a good company?

Because I've been there a long time and I'm bored, or because my boss isn't bad but isn't the best, or because opportunities for advancement seem slim, or because I want a shorter commute, or because the prospective company has a great reputation, or because I think I could work with better engineers somewhere else, or because...

I wouldn't take the chance at a CtH job because there's a significant probability that I end up totally out of a job, rather than employed in an OK (but not great) job.

Of course it's possible that I would accept a FT position and it would turn out just as poorly as a CtH that didn't work out; I would just expect that the probability of it not working out is much higher in a CtH scenario because the company I'm working for has invested far less in me than one that has hired me full time.

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#98

Post by pc86 »

georgerobinson wrote: post #91
pc86 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others have replied and given you the legal and logistical reasons why non-employers will not tell you why you were rejected, but there's another one: it's not their job. If I run a web development studio, it is not my job to assist in the personal development of people I've decided (for whatever reason) are not a good fit. Yes, logistically that's a pain in the ass if I send 1 offer letter and 12 explanations about…

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Likewise, it is not the job of your prospective clients (the scenario in which you run a web shop) to give you feedback over why they chose a competitor over you. Perhaps you don't even know why. Wouldn't it be great though to have constructive feedback that would help you win future pitches?

Agree 100%, however when is the last time you saw a business owner say something about how much they wished the candidates who passed would just tell them why and explain what they could have done to get them, etc?

It seems like a fairly common complaint from rejected candidates that they want the company to continue investing in them after a decision has been made not to move forward. And in the rare instances when I've offered this advice or help after one or more requests, it has been invariably met with an attitude either that I am wrong/stupid for coming to such a conclusion (e.g. not enough education, or no experience with something we want someone to have experience in) or a flat out request to give them another shot.

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#99

Post by adekok »

RogerL wrote: post #45
adekok wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a related note, the best predictor of university physics scores is high school English scores. Why? Because physics is about making a conceptual model. i.e. telling a story about a problem. And then solving it. For interviewing, communications skills are a must. People will be working in a team, and must be able to explain themselves. And get along with others. Another thing rarely checked for is the flip side...…

I don't think so. The best predictor of university physics scores is...wait for it.... university physics scores. Likewise, the best predictor of on job performance is on job performance. If this isn't a recent grad, interviewing on the resume will tell you more any proxy for on job performance. Sure, people may be seeking to step up from a drudgery type job, but I think that usually comes out (citation needed, I adm…

> The best predictor of university physics scores is...wait for it.... university physics scores.

And how do you predict university physics scores for people who've never been to university?

It's pretty obvious that for someone already doing a job, that the best predictor of future performance is past performance. So your comment is unhelpful and condescending.

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#100

Post by vitd »

pc86 wrote: post #98
georgerobinson wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Likewise, it is not the job of your prospective clients (the scenario in which you run a web shop) to give you feedback over why they chose a competitor over you. Perhaps you don't even know why. Wouldn't it be great though to have constructive feedback that would help you win future pitches?

Agree 100%, however when is the last time you saw a business owner say something about how much they wished the candidates who passed would just tell them why and explain what they could have done to get them, etc? It seems like a fairly common complaint from rejected candidates that they want the company to continue investing in them after a decision has been made not to move forward. And in the rare instances when…

>in the rare instances when I've offered this advice or help after one or more requests, it has been invariably met with an attitude either that I am wrong/stupid for coming to such a conclusion... or a flat out request to give them another shot.

Yeah, I've hit this and it really is annoying to deal with. I have one candidate we rejected 4 or 5 years ago because his resume was questionable, and once a year he still emails me asking for a position (and I'm not a hiring manager!).

I have had it go the other way, too, though. I had a candidate who didn't meet some criteria. He asked why, and I told him. A year later he had done a bunch of work to improve himself and we hired him.

So it can work both ways. But I definitely agree that the more common case is for the candidate to rationalize away why the company is wrong.

And I think companies that got feedback from candidates would do the same thing: "He said we didn't offer a big enough salary, but our pay is exactly the median of other companies around here. He's just a prima donna!"

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