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Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

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Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#111

Post by w0rd-driven »

kvcrawford wrote: post #29
sjcrank wrote: post #6

I would recommend a small variation of this technique in order to maintain good working relationships with your manager/employer. Start with a conversation explaining why you believe you should be better compensated, highlighting the value you add to the company, rarity of your skills, market rates, etc. If the request is rejected, or the increase offered is inadequate, then find an offer at another employer and use…

This. OP is immediately rolling in the tanks, when some tactful diplomacy could achieve the same result.

Not necessarily. A salary negotiation initiated by an employee out of the blue raises a huge red flag. You've just alerted management that you're merely "possibly" not happy so they can start the ball rolling in finding your replacement well before you've even started the ball rolling in finding their replacement.

I work in Georgia, an at will state, meaning I can be fired at a moment's notice for anything. There's no notice period, my salary stops right then. If I quit I don't have to give notice either but I do it as a professional courtesy because I wanna seem like an adult, even if the places that force my hand are nowhere near that. That means to follow the given advice I have to navigate a minefield to just keep my job at neutral, at best get the raise I wanted and at worst be escorted out the door right then and there.

I feel like this puts me in a terrible spot and it's one of the reasons I'm making well well below what I'm worth. This negotiation also can be attributed to why I hate the interview process and tend to stick with a place well beyond my time. Once I'm in a spot I can prove without fail that I'm worth well more than I'm paid but no one believes that can come from such a shy introvert with few hobbies outside of video games. I feel like things are changing on all fronts but it's a glacial pace at best.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#112

Post by methodover »

There's a problem here, a tragedy of the commons.

Trust is a public good. A culture of honesty and trust is better for the experience of each individual employee, and for the company as a whole.

Unfortunately, the OP is right about one thing -- one individual liar in a workplace of honest people will likely get ahead. He can lie about his place in the market, and divert more resources towards himself. He can keep the salary of others low, and take more money for himself.

The problem is that if everyone started doing that, the public trust would be eroded. This thing that's critical to a company's success, not to mention the happiness of each individual employee -- trust -- starts to weaken. It might not manifest itself obviously at first -- maybe it's just people being more closed off, less open, less invested. It might mean your engineers care a bit less about doing a really good job, because they don't feel as emotionally invested in their job. It probably means the good employees leave. And it means what you're left with are unhappy, uninvested, bad engineers.

In other words, it's probably a good individual strategy for maximizing short-term personal gains. But it's bad for the commons -- it's bad for your fellow employees and it's bad for your workplace.

And honestly, it's probably bad for YOU; your personal inner life. Once you become okay with lying, you start to treat other people differently. It affects your entire personality. I can't imagine that OP only lies in his workplace; most likely his deceptive habits have seeped into the rest of his life too. Maybe the OP is a sociopath and doesn't feel empathy for others -- but if he's a regular person, it erodes at your soul.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#113

Post by alain94040 »

A more ethical version of this method: https://medium.com/@colunchers/how-to-negotiate-a-raise-9166...

Basically, competition is what drives prices up, but you can do it ethically without lying about your current compensation. And make sure you your attitude remains positive, don't act like a mercenary who'll quit the day he gets an extra dollar elsewhere. Happiness at your current job does matter.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#114

Post by JoeAltmaier »

avitzurel wrote: post #103
s73v3r wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Never ever use another offer as leverage, both the employer and the employee need to come to the table with good intentions." More often than not, employers won't give raises unless you do. "If an employee used another offer as leverage with me, I would probably 1) not give him a raise, 2) give him notice." Then you're a terrible manager who likely will drive out all of their talent.

Yeah well, I guess I needed to be much clearer than what I was otherwise snarky HN comments are to be expected. "More often than not, employers won't give raises unless you do" That might be true, but you still should not use another offer as leverage during negotiations, that's bad either way. "Then you're a terrible manager who likely will drive out all of their talent." Well, thanks, I really appreciate HN complim…

It may be badly stated, but the sentiment I agree with. If I can show you how you undervalue my work (here's somebody who would pay more) then that's coming to the table with honest intentions. Its saying "I'd like to stay, but I feel underappreciated. What can you do to correct that?"

I see no reason to reject that argument out of hand. Since no rationale was given for the policy of serving them notice if somebody speaks up, its fair to observe that its probably going to lose you some good people.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#115

Post by dragonwriter »

raphar wrote: post #109
plesner wrote: post #57

He's right, this post isn't about gloating. It's a story a manager tells himself to justify screwing over his employees. He says that's what he's doing: "I have an engineer working for me who makes $75k, who is absolutely critical to our company". But it's okay because the employee should just swindle him right back, that's what he did right? And if he doesn't then it's kind of his own fault that I'm underpaying him…

A thing that I always wondered: What gains a manager by being cheap about his subordinates' salaries? Do they like to feel power over the hopeless guys? is there another thing?

> A thing that I always wondered: What gains a manager by being cheap about his subordinates' salaries?

A manager's job is to manage resources to provide the firm with the maximum benefit for the least cost, and salary is one of the more obvious non-fuzzy components on either the cost or benefit side of that equation.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#117

Post by rue »

dragonwriter wrote: post #115
raphar wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A thing that I always wondered: What gains a manager by being cheap about his subordinates' salaries? Do they like to feel power over the hopeless guys? is there another thing?

> A thing that I always wondered: What gains a manager by being cheap about his subordinates' salaries? A manager's job is to manage resources to provide the firm with the maximum benefit for the least cost, and salary is one of the more obvious non-fuzzy components on either the cost or benefit side of that equation.

Only if you completely ignore the direct and indirect effects of salary on the employee.

Which an alarming majority does, but still.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#118

Post by avitzurel »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #114
avitzurel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah well, I guess I needed to be much clearer than what I was otherwise snarky HN comments are to be expected. "More often than not, employers won't give raises unless you do" That might be true, but you still should not use another offer as leverage during negotiations, that's bad either way. "Then you're a terrible manager who likely will drive out all of their talent." Well, thanks, I really appreciate HN complim…

It may be badly stated, but the sentiment I agree with. If I can show you how you undervalue my work (here's somebody who would pay more) then that's coming to the table with honest intentions. Its saying "I'd like to stay, but I feel underappreciated. What can you do to correct that?" I see no reason to reject that argument out of hand. Since no rationale was given for the policy of serving them notice if somebody s…

With that, I agree 100%.

I had the exact same situation with an employee about 3 years ago, the client he was working with offered him a job with more money that he was making.

After a discussion with him, he said "I am happy here, but I cannot turn my back on so much more money" (it was 40% more).

This is completely different than what described with intentionally going out to get another offer just for leverage when you want a raise.

That has respect, it has honesty and that is something I am completely on board with.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#119

Post by kdamken »

ryandrake wrote: post #85
kdamken wrote: post #70

I'm always blown away by how people lowball themselves. See how much you're worth, then ask for more. The worst they can say is no, the best they can say is yes, and somewhere in the middle is still pretty good.

The "see how much you're worth" part is the tricky one. Unless you are directly generating revenue (e.g. in sales), it's hard to quantify what you're worth is to a company, or in the broader market. There doesn't appear to be a credible, accessible source of data out there. However your employer knows what everyone is making, and knows where you stand vs. the average. Employers obviously have a huge advantage from th…

Yea it's a bit tougher when you're not in sales. Still, you can look up market value for your role in the area you're in.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#120

Post by JoeAltmaier »

avitzurel wrote: post #118
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be badly stated, but the sentiment I agree with. If I can show you how you undervalue my work (here's somebody who would pay more) then that's coming to the table with honest intentions. Its saying "I'd like to stay, but I feel underappreciated. What can you do to correct that?" I see no reason to reject that argument out of hand. Since no rationale was given for the policy of serving them notice if somebody s…

With that, I agree 100%. I had the exact same situation with an employee about 3 years ago, the client he was working with offered him a job with more money that he was making. After a discussion with him, he said "I am happy here, but I cannot turn my back on so much more money" (it was 40% more). This is completely different than what described with intentionally going out to get another offer just for leverage whe…

My colleague considers every annual review as a renewed offer of employment. With that mindset, periodically interviewing for other jobs is a normal thing to do; you take the best offer you get.

In this world view, going out to get another offer isn't 'for leverage', its part of a career process that makes sense.

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