Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations • Hacker News Board

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#91

Post by jxm262 » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:27 PM UTC

xianshou wrote: post #4

This is an admirable display of tactics, but a poor general strategy. His repeated threats to leave, as well as lies about other offers, only worked because the company in question was already struggling and needed to hold onto him for fear of not finding a replacement. A more prominent and successful company would have jettisoned him as soon as it found a qualified and, in all probability, more loyal applicant. Howe…

I've noticed that yes there is headroom, but 15%? This seems like alot, but honestly I'm probably undervaluing it myself (something I'm working on).

As I'm just now transitioning from being what I consider "mid" level to "senior" (relative titles I know), I'll try to keep your comment in mind for future jobs. It makes me a bit sad that this game has to be played so much in order to get the full value of your worth.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#92

Post by srtjstjsj » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:27 PM UTC

klenwell wrote: post #14

joezydeco wrote: post #7

Two things: I went back to my original employer and said I had a new job offer for $70k, and I didn't want to negotiate, I just wanted their final, last ditch offer That's an incredibly awesome way to have a huge target painted on your back. A lot of employers get really pissed at this tactic but won't say so to your face. They will gladly give you that new salary for just enough time to get a (cheaper) replacement o…

Welcome to the 2010s, where credit unions now run additional services for employers and HR departments. My company regularly uses The Work Number from Experian. Interesting. I've always suspected something like this existed and have argued with people against lying about salary history on the assumption that it does. This is the first confirmation I've seen. Thanks!

I guarantee you that The Work Number does not include the value of bonuses, perks, benefits, and appropriate equity valuation.

TWN includes base -- which is what banks care about.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#93

Post by avitzurel » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:28 PM UTC

As an employer and an employee I know this much.

Never ever use another offer as leverage, both the employer and the employee need to come to the table with good intentions.

Asking for more money is usual business, both for employers and employees, but with more money you are asking you need to explain why you are worth more money, why I as your employer need to pay you more.

For most part, when someone goes after other offers, even if you give him a raise, he/she will leave after since it's a symptom of not being happy and being confused that more money will make you happy, but it doesn't.

If an employee used another offer as leverage with me, I would probably 1) not give him a raise, 2) give him notice.

Lot of people come into those negotiations stressed out and assume that there's some magic behind it, there isn't, be honest, completely honest, state your case and more often than not you will get what you want.

As a rule, I never lie to my employer and I expect the same from my employees, same with people interviewing. I think it's wrong asking "how much are you making now in your current company?" during an interview, but if I was asked that I would be honest and I would not even say 1$ more than what I was making. You can explain why you think you deserve more, but never lie about how much you are making during an interview.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#94

Post by ksenzee » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:33 PM UTC

For women reading this post and thinking "I should negotiate more," please make sure you've also read the research on how salary negotiation works differently for women. There was a New Yorker article on the phenomenon last year: "In four studies, Bowles and collaborators from Carnegie Mellon found that people penalized women who initiated negotiations for higher compensation more than they did men."[0]

My personal anecdotal experience suggests that women can indeed successfully negotiate salary. We just have to be more strategic about it, and be careful what impression we're making.

[0] http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/lean-out-th...

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#95

Post by nautical » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:36 PM UTC

I dislike this to the core ! .. People like these are the reason "real startup enthusiasts" leave MNCs and work for startups and if these people start coming to startup world , it can even lead to failure of companies .

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#96

Post by zaif » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:36 PM UTC

A lot of people attacking him for his lack of integrity and lying, and I too feel a little disgusted by the behavior. However, what ethical negotiation strategy would you use in his place?

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#97

Post by s73v3r » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:37 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #7

Two things: I went back to my original employer and said I had a new job offer for $70k, and I didn't want to negotiate, I just wanted their final, last ditch offer That's an incredibly awesome way to have a huge target painted on your back. A lot of employers get really pissed at this tactic but won't say so to your face. They will gladly give you that new salary for just enough time to get a (cheaper) replacement o…

"Then your salary is changed to $0.00."

No, then you use your savings, which should be higher because you were paid more, and you go get another job, which should offer a higher starting salary because most starting salaries are based off of what you were making previously.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#98

Post by s73v3r » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:46 PM UTC

schneems wrote: post #8

xianshou wrote: post #4

This is an admirable display of tactics, but a poor general strategy. His repeated threats to leave, as well as lies about other offers, only worked because the company in question was already struggling and needed to hold onto him for fear of not finding a replacement. A more prominent and successful company would have jettisoned him as soon as it found a qualified and, in all probability, more loyal applicant. Howe…

> A more prominent and successful company would have jettisoned him as soon as it found a qualified and, in all probability, more loyal applicant. Even a successful company needs good engineers. They don't fire people just because they're "not loyal". Sure that medium sized company might want to replace you with a cheaper more "loyal" version, but what is their capability to do so? Beyond loyalty is dollars and cents…

"Even a successful company needs good engineers. They don't fire people just because they're "not loyal"."

Successful companies can still have a few crappy managers in them.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#99

Post by pakled_engineer » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:46 PM UTC

plesner wrote: post #57

He's right, this post isn't about gloating. It's a story a manager tells himself to justify screwing over his employees. He says that's what he's doing: "I have an engineer working for me who makes $75k, who is absolutely critical to our company". But it's okay because the employee should just swindle him right back, that's what he did right? And if he doesn't then it's kind of his own fault that I'm underpaying him…

If the engineer doesn't want to play the negotiating game, they won't ever ask for a raise they'll just up and leave when somebody else in their network offers them 50k increase salary. Should proactively compensate them instead of swindling and expecting them to haggle.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#100

Post by revelation » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:48 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #7

Two things: I went back to my original employer and said I had a new job offer for $70k, and I didn't want to negotiate, I just wanted their final, last ditch offer That's an incredibly awesome way to have a huge target painted on your back. A lot of employers get really pissed at this tactic but won't say so to your face. They will gladly give you that new salary for just enough time to get a (cheaper) replacement o…

So employers now share salaries between each other in an effort to depress wages while telling workers they can't possibly discuss their compensation with coworkers?

The american worker is hilarious. Gotta keep fighting those unions!