So the author now knows only one software product, after 5 years in the field, and has a 150K salary and stock. Sounds like he worked his way into golden handcuffs at a very young age.
Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations
61–70 of 137 posts
Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations
#62This is an admirable display of tactics, but a poor general strategy. His repeated threats to leave, as well as lies about other offers, only worked because the company in question was already struggling and needed to hold onto him for fear of not finding a replacement. A more prominent and successful company would have jettisoned him as soon as it found a qualified and, in all probability, more loyal applicant. Howe…
> His repeated threats to leave, as well as lies about other offers, only worked because the company in question was already struggling and needed to hold onto him for fear of not finding a replacement.
It's called leverage. Or a strong negotiating position. Or whatever else. Point being that he was valuable to them, knew it, and was willing to use that. This is how any and every negotiation plays out.
Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations
#63I dislike this greatly, and it doesn't seem like a sustainable path - if the market crashes, and his/her skills don't match the compensation level, then it will backfire greatly & catch up to him/her. I was able to boost my salary to $160k in 2 1/2 years from a starting salary of $50k, but through tireless improvement of my craft (self-studying, experimentation, and contributions to major open source libraries, inclu…
You realize that "We cannot afford to pay that" is also being dishonest, because they can afford to pay. Basically lying is standard procedure for employers, yet why should it be a moral smear for employees in negotiations?
Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations
#64I would recommend a small variation of this technique in order to maintain good working relationships with your manager/employer. Start with a conversation explaining why you believe you should be better compensated, highlighting the value you add to the company, rarity of your skills, market rates, etc. If the request is rejected, or the increase offered is inadequate, then find an offer at another employer and use…
Yes, the key is to never make ultimatums, as that creates too much conflict. Just say you're "unhappy". Keep it vague. See what they do. It's tough finding good people in this market.
Ultimatums can be useful both for cutting the negotiation process short (to avoid pain from inferior negotiation skills, for instance) or to show your business understanding. If you want executives to respect your business acumen, demonstrating your skills like this is one way to go about it.
Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations
#65So, his strategy basically boils down to "My way or the highway". Well buddy, not all managers are spineless like the ones you have in that startup and if you tried to pull this trick on them and to strongarm them into submission, they'd kick you out the door in a heartbeat esp. when you're a lousy junior dev who's learning on the job according to your statement. I've been very critic of employers and business owners…
From what he's said, it's less that the managers were spineless and more that he made himself very valuable.
Personally, I don't see a problem with a mercenary attitude. It's simple, it's clear, and you always know where you stand with a mercenary. It's easy to work with, if you're willing to meet them on their terms. It brings the clarity of a transaction to what is ultimately a transaction anyway.
Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations
#66Two things: I went back to my original employer and said I had a new job offer for $70k, and I didn't want to negotiate, I just wanted their final, last ditch offer That's an incredibly awesome way to have a huge target painted on your back. A lot of employers get really pissed at this tactic but won't say so to your face. They will gladly give you that new salary for just enough time to get a (cheaper) replacement o…
Don't give a company you're interviewing with your social security number. You only have to give it up if you accept their offer and become an employee. Generally this happens on the first day of work or when doing the on boarding paperwork...not during the interview process. Also, I find it amusing the tacit assumption that its somehow moral for companies to look up salary histories via credit reports but that inter…
Companies that pull credit reports on candidates are a completely different form of scum, and they should be called out more often for this.
Yes, there are exceptions where credit difficulties could indicate an unstable employment situation (like having a security clearance or working in finance), but otherwise your personal finances should be completely independent of your employment.
Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations
#67This is an admirable display of tactics, but a poor general strategy. His repeated threats to leave, as well as lies about other offers, only worked because the company in question was already struggling and needed to hold onto him for fear of not finding a replacement. A more prominent and successful company would have jettisoned him as soon as it found a qualified and, in all probability, more loyal applicant. Howe…
>A more prominent and successful company would have jettisoned him as soon as it found a qualified and, in all probability, more loyal applicant.
Notice the implicit assumption that employees should be loyal to companies, but companies are free to "jettison" an employee aggressively negotiating because that's not "loyal"?
The only reason engineers are not getting respect as an industry (and I've seen this get worse over the past 30 years) is because we sell ourselves short.
Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations
#68How do you guys estimate your market value? For example, if you go to salary.com there are many levels of software engineering (I, II, III, IV, etc). The description for each is quite vague and the difference between them is very small (or hard to notice) while the pay rate delta can be big.
Use this site. http://data.jobsintech.io/
It's based on public data required for H1B/employer-sponsored visa. So typically will include not very senior engineers.
Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations
#69He's right, this post isn't about gloating. It's a story a manager tells himself to justify screwing over his employees. He says that's what he's doing: "I have an engineer working for me who makes $75k, who is absolutely critical to our company". But it's okay because the employee should just swindle him right back, that's what he did right? And if he doesn't then it's kind of his own fault that I'm underpaying him…
Agreed. This is more about seeing the perspective of the employer than the employee. Managers who claw their way up expect employees to do the same.
Also, it'd be interesting to see his manager's perspective in this all as he claws his way up. I'm betting there were points where, just as he thinks he's getting what he wants all along by lying (why are his lies always in parentheses?), management is thinking they had this planned all along as well.
Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations
#70I'm always blown away by how people lowball themselves. See how much you're worth, then ask for more. The worst they can say is no, the best they can say is yes, and somewhere in the middle is still pretty good.