Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations • Hacker News Board

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#51

Post by MCRed » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:16 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #7

Two things: I went back to my original employer and said I had a new job offer for $70k, and I didn't want to negotiate, I just wanted their final, last ditch offer That's an incredibly awesome way to have a huge target painted on your back. A lot of employers get really pissed at this tactic but won't say so to your face. They will gladly give you that new salary for just enough time to get a (cheaper) replacement o…

Don't give a company you're interviewing with your social security number. You only have to give it up if you accept their offer and become an employee. Generally this happens on the first day of work or when doing the on boarding paperwork...not during the interview process.

Also, I find it amusing the tacit assumption that its somehow moral for companies to look up salary histories via credit reports but that interviewees don't have a right to know the salaries the company has given to other employees.

The information asymmetry is part of the reason that this guy lied-- and to be honest, in 25+ years, I've never had a salary negotiation where the company didn't lie to me "oh, we can't afford that!" (when in reality they are just trying to lowball by pretending they don't have the money. It's a lie no worse than his.)

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#52

Post by blazespin » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:16 PM UTC

burnallofit wrote: post #50

OP's first mistake is only interviewing at 2 companies, which apparently both sucked. OP's second mistake is staying at the same company for so long despite the fact that (a) they have to fight for decent raises (b) the company sucks. Seriously, at the point where there are "serious problems in sales, engineers are leaving en masse", OP doubles down. They are now a highly paid manager in a sucky company. OP's third a…

LOL! Gimme a break. He had the balls to stick it out at the company and make manager, which sounds like where he wants his career to go. If everyone just bailed when times were tough, nothing would ever get done. All I can say is hats off to this guy. Our economy is built on this sort of drive.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#53

Post by MCRed » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:18 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #42

burnallofit wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried to look myself up, and indeed they don't have my current employer (a small startup). My guess is that only larger employers participate. More importantly, this raises significant privacy issues. How can a current or former employer make sensitive data like salary information easily and publicly accessible, without permission? That ought to be illegal. I agree that it's really wrong to lie about one's salary;…

My take (as it was explained to me by HR) is that currently it's used as a way to let decisionmakers (landlords, bank loan officers, court systems, etc) get verification of employment and/or salary via mutual agreement. You, as the wage-earner, grant an access key to a landlord for example. He then can get quick verification of your application information without wasting HR's time. But I trust the credit bureaus as…

How is equinox getting the data? Is it from self reports? (EG: you apply for credit, say you work for XYZ and make $QWR -- that goes in your credit report.) Or are employers turning over this information to equifax? By what right can they do that? Seems a violation of the privacy act to me.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#54

Post by blazespin » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:20 PM UTC

xianshou wrote: post #4

This is an admirable display of tactics, but a poor general strategy. His repeated threats to leave, as well as lies about other offers, only worked because the company in question was already struggling and needed to hold onto him for fear of not finding a replacement. A more prominent and successful company would have jettisoned him as soon as it found a qualified and, in all probability, more loyal applicant. Howe…

"Loyalty" ... riiight - everyone wants chumps as employees. Clearly I disagree. Smart leaders pay above market for real talent, regardless of their 'loyalty'. The bottom line is, if you pay someone well and assist them in their career aspirations (promotions, etc), you know they will be loyal.

Loyalty just because your manager is a 'nice guy' is what weak engineers do who can't compete.

At least in this market, where talent can always find work. If the market ever turns and there is an oversupply, I agree you should probably STFU and do your job.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#55

Post by markbnj » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:22 PM UTC

So they finally got back at you by making you a manager?

Seriously, though, the pay curve you experienced isn't that atypical for young developers entering the market. Someone just out of college can always be had cheaply (except in a few unusual circumstances). For the most part they are an unknown quantity. If they come in and excel for a year they are suddenly worth a lot more, and that's just the way it works. My own pay curve looked very similar in the first three or four years of professional work... but it was twenty years ago. :)

Also thanks for your kind words about senior engineers in their 50's. We agree!

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#56

Post by notNow » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:23 PM UTC

So, his strategy basically boils down to "My way or the highway".

Well buddy, not all managers are spineless like the ones you have in that startup and if you tried to pull this trick on them and to strongarm them into submission, they'd kick you out the door in a heartbeat esp. when you're a lousy junior dev who's learning on the job according to your statement.

I've been very critic of employers and business owners when they describe that some employees have a mercenary attitude when it comes to the workplace and I'd always feel offended by that but when you read an account like this where certain jerks boast about their ability to bluff people and fleece them of their money in that disgusting manner, you come to realize that they might have a valid reason behind their worries and reservations.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#57

Post by plesner » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:24 PM UTC

He's right, this post isn't about gloating. It's a story a manager tells himself to justify screwing over his employees. He says that's what he's doing: "I have an engineer working for me who makes $75k, who is absolutely critical to our company". But it's okay because the employee should just swindle him right back, that's what he did right? And if he doesn't then it's kind of his own fault that I'm underpaying him right? Right?

You're not the underdog. You're the guy screwing over the underdogs. If that makes you feel bad then that's good, it should. Maybe that's a voice you should listen to?

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#58

Post by joezydeco » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:25 PM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #53

joezydeco wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My take (as it was explained to me by HR) is that currently it's used as a way to let decisionmakers (landlords, bank loan officers, court systems, etc) get verification of employment and/or salary via mutual agreement. You, as the wage-earner, grant an access key to a landlord for example. He then can get quick verification of your application information without wasting HR's time. But I trust the credit bureaus as…

How is equinox getting the data? Is it from self reports? (EG: you apply for credit, say you work for XYZ and make $QWR -- that goes in your credit report.) Or are employers turning over this information to equifax? By what right can they do that? Seems a violation of the privacy act to me.

The employer is giving (selling?) the data.

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/exclusive-your-employer-ma...

In the US the Fair Credit Reporting Act gives collection firms the ability to access this data. In other uses (like the landlord example) the access is granted by the employee.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#59

Post by burnallofit » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:26 PM UTC

blazespin wrote: post #52

burnallofit wrote: post #50

OP's first mistake is only interviewing at 2 companies, which apparently both sucked. OP's second mistake is staying at the same company for so long despite the fact that (a) they have to fight for decent raises (b) the company sucks. Seriously, at the point where there are "serious problems in sales, engineers are leaving en masse", OP doubles down. They are now a highly paid manager in a sucky company. OP's third a…

LOL! Gimme a break. He had the balls to stick it out at the company and make manager, which sounds like where he wants his career to go. If everyone just bailed when times were tough, nothing would ever get done. All I can say is hats off to this guy. Our economy is built on this sort of drive.

The simple fact is that 90%+ of startups fail. The economy is certainly not built on failure but rather on knowing when to redirect effort to where it will actually make a difference. Recognizing when a ship is sinking is critical to one's own career and economic situation.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#60

Post by blazespin » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:26 PM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #33

I dislike this greatly, and it doesn't seem like a sustainable path - if the market crashes, and his/her skills don't match the compensation level, then it will backfire greatly & catch up to him/her. I was able to boost my salary to $160k in 2 1/2 years from a starting salary of $50k, but through tireless improvement of my craft (self-studying, experimentation, and contributions to major open source libraries, inclu…

If the market crashes, yes, it could be hard. But I would argue that the decision to fire people won't be based on loyalty but rather on 'what have you done for me lately'.