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We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

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Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#61

Post by zombees »

PaulHoule wrote: post #46

It tires me that there is so much talk about the problem of hiring developers and very little about the problem of "what do you do once you hire them?" That is, they may treat you like a rockstar when they sign you, but then if you complain because you got a crappy Dell laptop that was a hand-me-down from a salesman who couldn't sell, that your build process takes 40 minutes and that this could cut that to 20 minutes…

This. My company uses about 40% of their engineering time manually completing firmware builds (literally dragging and dropping dozens files back and forth for various in house tools) and dealing with the super awesome proprietary version control system that requires about an hour of clicking around, rebasing and navigating to create a release. We scare new people away who were trained on the cutting edge tools (git, continuous integration, etc) because "we spend a lot of money on these 'professional' tools"

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#62

Post by dragonwriter »

edw519 wrote: post #54
dragonwriter wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's bad for the worker because you're going to work for a company that is admitting by its behavior that it has little confidence in its abiliity to assess talent. Where else is it weak? You seem to think that willingness to admit that assessing fit for a particular job is unreliable without actually experience of the candidate working in the real conditions is correlated with the relative degree to which the comp…

Assessing talent is a predictable scientific process. Good companies know how to do it. Other companies don't, so they use contract to perm to compensate. I have hired hundreds of programmers and have never been disappointed. The recruitment process lasted as long as it had to to know that it was a good fit. Contract to perm was never needed.

> Assessing talent is a predictable scientific process. Good companies know how to do it. Other companies don't, so they use contract to perm to compensate.

Alternatively, its a predictable scientific process which is more accurate when actual time in seat is devoted to the assessment, and good companies know this and bad companies just delude themselves into settling with a less reliable process.

Or, more accurately, assessing fit for job is a task that varies by the specific job (including, among other things, how much room the role, size, and mission of the organization leaves for customizing the job around the individual) for which suitability is being assessed, and good companies (in this regard, at least are those that understand the mechanisms which are most appropriate for assessing fit for the jobs they actually are hiring for and choose the right methods (which may or may not include contract-to-perm for particular jobs), and bad companies are those that don't (which may include picking contract-to-perm for jobs where its not the best choice -- or not choosing it for jobs where it is.)

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#63

Post by ghaff »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #49
PaulHoule wrote: post #46

It tires me that there is so much talk about the problem of hiring developers and very little about the problem of "what do you do once you hire them?" That is, they may treat you like a rockstar when they sign you, but then if you complain because you got a crappy Dell laptop that was a hand-me-down from a salesman who couldn't sell, that your build process takes 40 minutes and that this could cut that to 20 minutes…

Unless you are relocating, fail-fast annulments should be allowed (I can quit after 1 week/month, it doesn't go on my resume). Maybe it should even go both ways.

In what way aren't they "allowed" (at least in general in the US)? It's pretty much up to you what you put on your resume. Leaving off a very short-term position that didn't work out seems entirely above-board to me.

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#64

Post by robmcm »

gaius wrote: post #52
robmcm wrote: post #16

Contract to perm is the best way by far. In the UK the contract rates are typically significantly higher, so even if the person isn't offered a job at the end they aren't bothered. Everyone wins

I struggle to understand the motivations of any of the parties involved here. Why would someone want to do the same job for less money and let's be honest these days, no more job security? Why would someone whose goal is a perm position, setup a company, just to do job searches with?

You can use one of the many umbrella companies.

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#66

Post by jasode »

RogerL wrote: post #39
jasode wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you "need a developer to port the Java code to Go", you need a contractor. Once the Java code is ported to Go, they're done, and there will be no more Java code to port to Go, so... why would you hire a permanent employee on the basis of their ability to port Java code to Go? My examples are being interpreted too literally. They are not tasks that must literally go into the job description. Instead, they are bull…

I think this still smacks of too-situational thinking. Every day my inbox fills with "exciting opportunities" that are nothing but a laundry list of requirements. Am I going to learn nothing on this job? Are you going to invest in me by letting me learn new skills? Are you going to unleash me on new problems, etc? If this is a boring maintainance mode job you don't need the 'best and the brightest' that everyone says…

>I think this still smacks of too-situational thinking. [...] It's rare that I see a req that interests me,

I understand. There are 2 sides on how to describe the existence of a job: (1) for the executive manager approving of the requisition and (2) for the candidates

In other words, when the hiring manager goes to the vice president asking for another FTE, the exec is going to ask the justification. The hiring manager could say, "well, we can teach him the latest cutting edge functional programming techniques, and also let him build up some AWS architecture skills which will boost his resume and make him more valuable to other companies, and he can play in our foosball ping pong table area, and eat our catered food, and take 4 weeks of vacation." Obviously, the vice president would think those are silly reasons for paying someone. Instead, he needs to know what value-added tasks will justify the job position.

(1) hiring manager perspective: the real work that needs to be done is highlighted, the employee's benefits are implied

(2) candidate perspective: the employee's benefits are highlighted, the "real work that needs to be done" is implied

The thread was about Kerri Miller who was talking about job positions from the company's perspective instead of the employee's and that's what guided my examples.

Behind every job ad that says "change the world and come work for us at our beautiful campus!" from YC, Google, or Apple, etc is a list of tasks that need to get done.

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#68

Post by robmcm »

switch007 wrote: post #36
robmcm wrote: post #16

Contract to perm is the best way by far. In the UK the contract rates are typically significantly higher, so even if the person isn't offered a job at the end they aren't bothered. Everyone wins

How does one transition from perm to those kind of gigs? Are they reserved for top-tier talent only? Is there much outside of the City?

I can only speak for London, but there are a lot.

Normally you need some experience, ideally in a specific skill, but shorter contracts may be available for people with less experience. If you are interested, it's best to find a decent recruiter who knows what they are talking about (easy to tell from a quick phone call).

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#69

Post by robmcm »

kangman wrote: post #31
robmcm wrote: post #16

Contract to perm is the best way by far. In the UK the contract rates are typically significantly higher, so even if the person isn't offered a job at the end they aren't bothered. Everyone wins

Isn't it probably also due to the fact that the UK offers unemployment and healthcare benefits that far surpass what is offered here in the States? So that there is a safety if at the end of the contract you are left with no offer.

I expect so, but you can also get double your salary with tax breaks when contracting. So it would be easy to cover private health care etc with the additional money.

Re: We’re Bad at Interviewing Developers – Interview with Kerri Miller

#70

Post by robmcm »

lhnz wrote: post #20
robmcm wrote: post #16

Contract to perm is the best way by far. In the UK the contract rates are typically significantly higher, so even if the person isn't offered a job at the end they aren't bothered. Everyone wins

Contract to perm is a good idea, but in the UK at least, the contract rates are significantly higher than permanent salaries so unless you offer them a salary that is way above the market rates for permanent staff and perhaps a role and responsibility level that'd truly stretch them it's quite likely they're going to decline your offer.

This is the kicker, you need to offer a compensation package that is as good as a contract rate.

However you know what you are getting so you could argue it's worth it...

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