France bids to reverse tech brain drain • Hacker News Board

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#51

Post by foobarge » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 2:10 PM UTC

onli wrote: post #6

Maybe France really changed a lot. But be not mistaken: It is still the most bureaucratic country on earth. Anecdote: I'm doing a PhD in France. Each year, one has to do a re-inscription. In Germany, that means sending money to the university. In France, that means sending in – let me count, I have them on my desk – 17 documents, and to pay as well of course (preferred way: with a check. Like it is 50 years ago). The…

> On the other hand, doing the taxes was not at all complicated and I got proper help

Tax collection is relentless and very efficient - they act is if it was THEIR money. France can borrow at very little interest rate because it is known that it will repay its debts, it can collect the money for it.

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#52

Post by saiya-jin » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 2:11 PM UTC

France is lucrative mostly to french native speakers, who have quite a massive phobia when they have to speak any other language rather than their own. It looks ridiculous and shameful, especially when noone cares about speaking it outside french bubble. The language had it's prime time long time ago and now it's a mere curiosity. Not the prettiest nor easiest one to learn either. Then there is amazing countryside, but that's hardly big enough motivation alone to move in or stay.

Some french work really hard, I think their effectiveness at work is above EU average. But they are socialists at their core - meaning all nice social benefits on one side, but massive inefficiency on the other, on all levels of government. In theory, there is no good reason why French should earn much less compared to say Germans. In reality, the difference is HUGE and there are good reasons for it. Market says it all :)

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#53

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 2:12 PM UTC

rifung wrote: post #49

_of wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The catch-22 applies to U.S. as well. Renting an apartment requires a credit score, which you get from having a credit card, which you can only get by having a credit score.

Well, that's not entirely true. I went through the process somewhat recently, and you can get a credit card by depositing some money first and using that as your max credit. That way the bank doesn't take any risk but you can build up your credit.

[deleted]

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#54

Post by nip » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 2:15 PM UTC

david_p wrote: post #11

seren wrote: post #2

I don't have hard data, but only a feeling that it should be easier to bootstrap in France than in US. Assuming you have worked previously, you can get unemployment benefits, around 60% of your previous salary for a year, and are covered by universal healthcare. So even if you need to have open heart surgery, you won't bankrupt your family for the next 7 generations. Actually someone (very brilliant) in my team is le…

Our startup was created in France 2,5 years ago. Here is our experience: Some of us started working on the project while getting unemployment benefits (huge boost). We get (very) affordable office spaces from the city and various incubators (we are located in Paris). We are able to live on first customers + 0% loans from the state + hundreds of thousands of euros in various grants for innovation ( http://www.bpifranc…

Fellow french here. I left France last year officially to finish my studies, unofficially to launch my startup. Where? In Estonia:

- 250€ for the rent in a shared flat, everything included (winter time, so more 200€ the rest of the year) 10min by feet from the city center, in the most vibrant district.

- Free public transportation (but Tallinn being a human-sized city, it doesn't really matter).

- I incorporated and activated my bank account from my couch.

- Bureaucracy is close to non-existent here. When there is some, it's online (I was advised to register our trademark online by the councelor I was having a meeting with, we were in his office. His words: "it's simpler online").

- Offices are extremely affordable, the tech scene is small but really active and friendly (much like the rest of Estonia, you end up knowing everyone here: think Kevin Bacon degrees on steroids).

Estonia has drawbacks of course, just like every other country but far less than France in my book.

Don't get me wrong, I love France, but being a lucky european citizen, I decided to move abroad as I don't want to have to go physically somewhere to get a stamp, or send out 10 documents everytime I need to apply / get something (be it ID, passport, transportation card, renting a new flat, etc): I already have a work! :)

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#55

Post by renaudg » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 2:17 PM UTC

Mimu wrote: post #14

I'm french, while it's true a lot of startup / opportunities in tech appeared in the last few years, most of them don't pay anything. They all advertise "good work ethic", "good environment", "good whatever" like it justifies for you to be paid like a graduate for an experienced position. You want talent? Pay the price.

With a few exceptions, French employers are not the problem, they do pay the same price for you as in other European countries, more or less ! The difference is that your average engineer in France costs them around 1.5-2.5 times the total take home pay, because of high, compulsory labor taxes.

In exchange, employees get as standard :

* a top notch, virtually free healthcare system with no concept of exclusions or "pre-conditions"

* Usually no student loans to repay because their higher education was free, unless they went for a private business/engineering school but that's still an order of magnitude cheaper than a US university.

* a comfortable (unsustainable ?) state pension later on.

* unemployment insurance that covers around 70% pay for months.

* 5 weeks holiday + public holidays

If you're US-based, think about your monthly budget and what goes towards healthcare/co-pay, student loans, kids college fund, 401k, and building an emergency fund in case you get laid off / severely ill. None of that is strictly required in France (although some of it is available as extra private coverage, and a good idea)

This is why cross-border salary comparisons are pointless, it's really apples & oranges.

I'm French and living in London, and I'd personally rather have the freedom to have a higher take-home pay and contribute towards the above items myself as I see fit. But I'm not fooling myself thinking that because my take-home pay is twice as high each month, the math is as simple as that. I know that I'm so much more on my own here than at home...

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#56

Post by renaudg » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 2:24 PM UTC

zamalek wrote: post #10

Something that I've noticed about South African brain drain is that it's mostly motivated by people simply wanting a system that works for them - at least in tech. If I'm working my ass off on a product that I believe in; I don't want to be, frankly, babysitting the government. From what I've read France is also in the business of destroying productivity - if they want people back they need to start reconsidering ove…

France has one of the highest per-worker productivity in the world, well ahead of the US. You may want to read more

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#57

Post by maelito » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 2:25 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #52

France is lucrative mostly to french native speakers, who have quite a massive phobia when they have to speak any other language rather than their own. It looks ridiculous and shameful, especially when noone cares about speaking it outside french bubble. The language had it's prime time long time ago and now it's a mere curiosity. Not the prettiest nor easiest one to learn either. Then there is amazing countryside, b…

You should read the introduction of this article about this "mere curiosity".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#58

Post by colinplamondon » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 2:30 PM UTC

maelito wrote: post #57

saiya-jin wrote: post #52

France is lucrative mostly to french native speakers, who have quite a massive phobia when they have to speak any other language rather than their own. It looks ridiculous and shameful, especially when noone cares about speaking it outside french bubble. The language had it's prime time long time ago and now it's a mere curiosity. Not the prettiest nor easiest one to learn either. Then there is amazing countryside, b…

You should read the introduction of this article about this "mere curiosity". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language

290,000,000 speakers (including secondary speakers.) out of 7,000,000 people on the planet.

4% of the planet. If 4% of America spoke a language, most of us wouldn't be in much of a rush to localize.

Fortunately for French, the core native speakers in France are rich, and most of the planet is still poor. As the rest of the planet catches up, "curiosity" becomes more accurate over time.

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#59

Post by germanier » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 2:35 PM UTC

onli wrote: post #41

thachmai wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash is King is Germany. It's rather awkward if you come from a country with heavy card use. It's just weird to carry a few hundred euros in cash in your pocket these days.

You need cash in Germany, but not a lot of it – everything big takes a debit card. That does not help strangers with their credit cards though, so they get the wrong impression.

I pay cash at the bakery, to get a coffee, to load my canteen card at work, and to buy bus tickets in small cities at the driver, that's it. Buying used cars is usually done by cash (even 10k and more). Almost everywhere else you can pay with a German debit card (Girocard).

But credit Cards are coming fast to Germany. Since a few weeks even the cheapest supermarkets, including Aldi, started to accept MasterCard and Visa.

Re: France bids to reverse tech brain drain

#60

Post by maelito » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 2:37 PM UTC

colinplamondon wrote: post #58

maelito wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read the introduction of this article about this "mere curiosity". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language

290,000,000 speakers (including secondary speakers.) out of 7,000,000 people on the planet. 4% of the planet. If 4% of America spoke a language, most of us wouldn't be in much of a rush to localize. Fortunately for French, the core native speakers in France are rich, and most of the planet is still poor. As the rest of the planet catches up, "curiosity" becomes more accurate over time.

You may want to read the rest of the introduction !