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Hacking Team, Computer Vulnerabilities, and the NSA

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Re: Hacking Team, Computer Vulnerabilities, and the NSA

#51

Post by rnovak »

deelowe wrote: post #44
a3n wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no proof or mention that they didn't. There never will be, ever. Yet we have to make decisions, even in the absence of evidence pro or con. Given that they don't disclose "wittingly" what they do, given their mission, and given what appears to be their interpretation of their mission as revealed by Snowden and others, we have to assume the "worst" within the realm of possibility. They did it, until they show…

Let's remove the hyperbole and call a spade a spade. So, you want them to prove a negative? Just trying to be clear.

They haven't even denied breaking into the HT Network. Should they be accused, would they?

I bet a dime-to-a-dollar that should they be accused, they'd release a non-statement to the press:

"We cannot comment on...."

Re: Hacking Team, Computer Vulnerabilities, and the NSA

#52

Post by PhantomGremlin »

rnovak wrote: post #8
codezero wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this, I agree it makes sense that they would have, I was just a bit disappointed that Bruce didn't enumerate any of this in his post. In fairness, all of this stuff is probably "duh" to him, and his normal audience, but it's not so obvious to everyone. Here's another thought: what if the NSA hacked Hacking Team, and they were also the ones to release all the data publicly. Re: #3 – do you have any links to…

I think it would be hard to go through everything, but off the top of my head: https://snowdenarchive.cjfe.org/greenstone/collect/snowden1/... Quote: For the past decade, NSA has lead an aggressive, multi-pronged effort to break widely used Internet encryption technologies Their Motto: "We penetrate targets' defences."

"We penetrate targets' defences."

That would more likely be a GCHQ or MI5 or MI6 motto than an NSA motto.

A quick bit of Googling finds that the "PTD" in the slides refers to GCHQ's Penetration Targeting Defences unit. So it's their motto. Which explains the spelling.

Re: Hacking Team, Computer Vulnerabilities, and the NSA

#53

Post by harry8 »

HiYaBarbie wrote: post #47
harry8 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure you're completely missing the point. Any time somebody suggests something is "against the law" in a discussion about the NSA practises we need to remind ourselves that they really don't care whether they break the law. They do it nakedly, in public, with live television coverage and there are no consequences. The NSA is a criminal organisation. I don't say everything they do is crime or that is there…

You're right to point out that the NSA doesn't give a fuck about the law, but.. > the rule of law is the point, it is a necessary condition for a civilized society and MOST ESPECIALLY the government needs to be bound by it You seem to be overlooking the fact that the organization that makes the laws is, by definition, above them . The government is not bound by its own laws any more than a King or Emperor by his, bac…

One thousand times NO. The rule of law applies to all equally. This the ideal insofar as it is agreed that our current implementation does not achieve that it is an agreed deficiency. The president murders their spouse, expect them to be charged. By definition the rule of law applies to all. The End. Period. The price of freedom is eternal... etc.

Re: Hacking Team, Computer Vulnerabilities, and the NSA

#54

Post by HiYaBarbie »

ikeboy wrote: post #48
HiYaBarbie wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are probably allowed, under the same charter that allows CIA to conduct HUMINT missions, to attack Italian security companies They are definitely not allowed , under the Constitution , to monitor everyone, but they do it anyway. You know this too. So why do you discuss legislation as if it mattered to the NSA, when their actions show it clearly doesn't?

The NSA consists of many parts. Some people within it breaking the law does not mean that laws don't matter there.

Look, the NSA as an organization, as a whole, is blatantly violating the Constitution, which is supposedly the most sacrosanct law of the nation.

The fact that they don't care about what laws say doesn't get any clearer than that.

The fact that no one from NSA has gone to jail for the NSA violating the Constitution shows.. well, pretty much that the government doesn't bother punishing itself for violating its own laws.

To be fair, that would be kind of silly, after all.

Re: Hacking Team, Computer Vulnerabilities, and the NSA

#55

Post by ikeboy »

HiYaBarbie wrote: post #54
ikeboy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NSA consists of many parts. Some people within it breaking the law does not mean that laws don't matter there.

Look, the NSA as an organization, as a whole, is blatantly violating the Constitution, which is supposedly the most sacrosanct law of the nation. The fact that they don't care about what laws say doesn't get any clearer than that. The fact that no one from NSA has gone to jail for the NSA violating the Constitution shows.. well, pretty much that the government doesn't bother punishing itself for violating its own law…

Has any court ruled NSA actions to be against the Constitution?

Re: Hacking Team, Computer Vulnerabilities, and the NSA

#56

Post by cpach »

tptacek wrote: post #40
rnovak wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this discussion could get convoluted really quickly, because I bet 100% of the companies in the Fortune 500 have a different definition of what their "enterprise" network consists of, and how it's organized. I can say that I used to work for one, and our departments' network was literally air gapped (not joking). Internal systems could not reach out, and no one could reach in. It was impossible for us to work…

I've done in the life immediately previous to my current one a fair bit of enterprise netpen work, and I have never seen a large enterprise network that had anything effectively airgapped. Getting onto a single desktop, in my experience, is virtually a gameover guarantee for any reasonable definition of "gameover".

No data diodes or equipment like that?

Re: Hacking Team, Computer Vulnerabilities, and the NSA

#57

Post by deelowe »

rnovak wrote: post #51
deelowe wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's remove the hyperbole and call a spade a spade. So, you want them to prove a negative? Just trying to be clear.

They haven't even denied breaking into the HT Network. Should they be accused, would they? I bet a dime-to-a-dollar that should they be accused, they'd release a non-statement to the press: "We cannot comment on...."

Facebook hadn't denied it either. Perhaps they are to blame.

Re: Hacking Team, Computer Vulnerabilities, and the NSA

#58

Post by HiYaBarbie »

harry8 wrote: post #53
HiYaBarbie wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right to point out that the NSA doesn't give a fuck about the law, but.. > the rule of law is the point, it is a necessary condition for a civilized society and MOST ESPECIALLY the government needs to be bound by it You seem to be overlooking the fact that the organization that makes the laws is, by definition, above them . The government is not bound by its own laws any more than a King or Emperor by his, bac…

One thousand times NO. The rule of law applies to all equally. This the ideal insofar as it is agreed that our current implementation does not achieve that it is an agreed deficiency. The president murders their spouse, expect them to be charged. By definition the rule of law applies to all. The End. Period. The price of freedom is eternal... etc.

> One thousand times NO. The rule of law applies to all equally.

This is just your cognitive dissonance talking.

You can say "NO" a million times, but Bradley Manning was just imprisoned without trial (and tortured for months.. years?), even though Habeas Corpus was supposed to apply.

> The president murders their spouse, expect them to be charged.

Why would you expect that? If the president murders his spouse, he's probably reasonably sure he'll get away with it. Otherwise he probably wouldn't.

> By definition the rule of law applies to all.

That's what we're trained to believe.. so many TV shows and movies show police officers risking their lives in fighting crime and courts being fair and just and all, but have you ever dealt with the court system? Did you get justice?

You've probably heard of "plea-bargaining", right? http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/12556-overwhelming-use-of...

People are blackmailed into accepting a punishment for something they haven't done, to avoid the potential life-ruining punishment for whatever outrageous bullshit they're charged with (that they haven't done either).

And you insist that everything is fine?

Maybe this will clarify things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNIgztvyU2U

Re: Hacking Team, Computer Vulnerabilities, and the NSA

#59

Post by HiYaBarbie »

ikeboy wrote: post #55
HiYaBarbie wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, the NSA as an organization, as a whole, is blatantly violating the Constitution, which is supposedly the most sacrosanct law of the nation. The fact that they don't care about what laws say doesn't get any clearer than that. The fact that no one from NSA has gone to jail for the NSA violating the Constitution shows.. well, pretty much that the government doesn't bother punishing itself for violating its own law…

Has any court ruled NSA actions to be against the Constitution?

How does it matter?

Re: Hacking Team, Computer Vulnerabilities, and the NSA

#60

Post by ikeboy »

HiYaBarbie wrote: post #59
ikeboy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has any court ruled NSA actions to be against the Constitution?

How does it matter?

If years after the Snowden revelation, no one has gotten a court to rule that blatant widespread constitutional violations took place at the NSA, you might want to reconsider your claim that there were blatant violations.
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