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A United States of Europe? Good Luck

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Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#51

Post by mrweasel »

Kurtz79 wrote: post #29
nkuttler wrote: post #10

Nobody I know wants United States of Europe. The European Union is completely undemocratic at it's core, our national leaders have made sure that the electorate has minimal powers and influence over their supranational policing. Sovereignty of the people conflicts with the sovereignty of nations.

I do want the United States of Europe. The alternative is the return of walls, nationalisms and wars, which has been the natural state of affairs in Europe for 99.9% of its history (100 years ago the Ministry of Defense was called Ministry of War for a reason). The iteration we have at the moment is far from efficient, far from perfect, far from fair, but it's better than anything that has come before.

>The alternative is the return of walls, nationalisms and wars

No it's not. You can have an EU-lite, where we agree on some things, like free trade, joint projects (like EuroPol). Not having the United States of Europe won't result in war any more than the EU imposing a rule on an non-volunteer country will.

If anything the EU has shown that it doesn't work. We can't even agree on helping people fleeing a war zone. Nor are the Eurozone countries in agreement on how to handle financial policies.

It's not that the European countries should work together, or strive to have similar laws and rules, but it should be limited to issues like trade and the environment. Things that is beyond the scope of single nations.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#52

Post by pluma »

rawTruthHurts wrote: post #24
Oletros wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Spain

Is not doing too well.

England.

The UK.

France.

Germany.

The USA.

The list of "[countries] patched together from previously autonomous bodies" happens to be an incredibly huge subset of countries that exist today.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#53

Post by pluma »

wolfgke wrote: post #30
a_bonobo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counter-example: Germany as a country has a very short history - "pan-germanism" was a movement to unify all German-speaking countries, which included quite a bit of Poland, Austria and Switzerland. There were 39 states in the first German Bund ~1870, there were way more states in the preceding Holy Roman Empire (that one included what's now the Netherlands, Belgium, parts of Italy etc.). These were merged into…

Mainly the war against the Napoleon empire united the German states in the 19th century and lead to the national movement.

It was a factor but not the entire reason. Pan-German sentiments were pre-existing.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#54

Post by im3w1l »

Oletros wrote: post #9
fsloth wrote: post #3

I have not yet met an analysis that would explain why a huge governmental body to politically rule the entire Europe would be a good thing. Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Most successful large systems grow organically and with time or are forced into a unified whole by a huge effort at control. And th…

> Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Spain

They've literally had guerillas trying to split it up. Is that the kind of EU we want?

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#55

Post by cm2187 »

dogma1138 wrote: post #13
cm2187 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only undemocratic because electors do not seem to care who they send to the EU. But MEP are elected, and the officials that are not elected are nominated by elected officials. I think the only viable EU is a United States of Europe, in which the current countries disappear, and you only have a Federal state and what is currently regions in the current countries. Whether a EU is desirable for the UK is another de…

The European Parliament has no real power. The legislative and executive powers of the union are held by the council of Europe which isn't an elected body.

EU laws take precedence on local laws. It is percieved as not having any power but in practice is a superior authority to the local parliements

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#56

Post by cm2187 »

megalodon wrote: post #19
cm2187 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only undemocratic because electors do not seem to care who they send to the EU. But MEP are elected, and the officials that are not elected are nominated by elected officials. I think the only viable EU is a United States of Europe, in which the current countries disappear, and you only have a Federal state and what is currently regions in the current countries. Whether a EU is desirable for the UK is another de…

"Elected", the turnout for the election 2014 was 42.54%. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_...

That's not great but not dissimilar to a US presidential election. Is the US president not democratically elected?

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#57

Post by Oletros »

im3w1l wrote: post #54
Oletros wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Spain

They've literally had guerillas trying to split it up. Is that the kind of EU we want?

> They've literally had guerillas trying to split it up

What the heck?

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#58

Post by dogma1138 »

rbehrends wrote: post #27
dogma1138 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The European Parliament has no real power. The legislative and executive powers of the union are held by the council of Europe which isn't an elected body.

> The European Parliament has no real power. The European Parliament elects the European Commission and can force its resignation through a vote of no confidence (the latter happened to the Santer Commission). Jean-Claude Juncker technically has more democratic legitimacy than David Cameron; he was elected by a number of representatives standing for a majority of the electorate. Practically all EU legislation require…

Yes i did mean the council of the European Union, but sorry you are completely wrong on everything else. The Parliament has only a say on 1 of the 28 commission members the which is the president and even then it's not elected by them. The president is nominated by the council, and confirmed by the parliament. This is similar to how supreme justices are confirmed by the senate in the US however the EUP has much less power over that confirmation. The rest of the 27 members are appointed directly by the council.

You can say that the EU as a whole is actually non-democratic all of the power de-jure and de-facto lies within the council, the council represents the executive branches of the EU members, you can even make an argument that the EU actually undermines the democratic process in other countries as it gives their executive branch a possible legislative power which they do not have directly in their own country.

The executive branches set up the council, the council has direct control over the legislative and executive powers of the union which means they can pass laws which might have implications on EU member states (especially if the state has decided to subdue itself to EU law in it's constitution, cough Sweden cough) in a manner that the executive branch of those states would not have agency on.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#59

Post by Timmons »

rorykoehler wrote: post #44
Timmons wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an English person I believe you are thinking of the whole of the UK as London. Lots of that sort of thing around there, not so much the rest of the place.

Yes, sorry no offense intended. I was talking about the dominant political philosophy. I lived in Liverpool for 7 years so I am fully aware of the real situation in the UK.

None taken. I feel the same way about that attitude :)
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