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A United States of Europe? Good Luck

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Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#21

Post by arethuza »

fsloth wrote: post #3

I have not yet met an analysis that would explain why a huge governmental body to politically rule the entire Europe would be a good thing. Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Most successful large systems grow organically and with time or are forced into a unified whole by a huge effort at control. And th…

What about the UK?

We have four components with varying levels of autonomy - Scotland arguably being the most "independent" as we have our legal system, education system and parliament here in Edinburgh.

As other poster note - Scotland and England are themselves the result of joining together once independent parts into units that last pretty well - Scotland goes back to the bit 9th century and some of the component parts of Scotland go back to the 6th century (though things get a bit vague by then).

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#22

Post by colinb »

netrus wrote: post #12
youngtaff wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeh, that's one of the key things - a United States of Europe is a goal driven by politicians and bureaucrats who are forever grabbing more power for themselves. Some of goals - trade zone, free movement of people etc., may make sense but a European wide army? Europe is a region of huge diversity, it doesn't need to be a single political entity.

German here. Could you imagine a Florida army going to war in Afghanistan, while California stays neutral, and Texas sends troops to Mexico? - Why not? People in Texas are quite different from people in California, they have different interests and beliefs. The driving force behind the United States of Europe is that (1) every single country is too small to be influential in the world (and we want to have influence i…

The obvious rebuttal to your first point is that Texas and California share a language. They also share quite a lot of culture. Whether a Texan is more like a Californian, than a German is like an Greek, I leave to the reader to decide.

There is one other thing. Identity is hard to impose. Most Americans of my acquaintance hold the US constitution to be a centrally important document. Otherwise they wouldn't argue so much about its exact meaning. There has been an attempt at a European constitution. It seems to have been a dismal failure. All the other arguments about border controls, the euro, farm subsidies and so on pale when compared to this. If you can't win hearts and minds, you can't win.

Though sometimes it appears you can achieve the appearance of winning through bureaucratic confusion.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#23

Post by rawTruthHurts »

arethuza wrote: post #21
fsloth wrote: post #3

I have not yet met an analysis that would explain why a huge governmental body to politically rule the entire Europe would be a good thing. Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Most successful large systems grow organically and with time or are forced into a unified whole by a huge effort at control. And th…

What about the UK? We have four components with varying levels of autonomy - Scotland arguably being the most "independent" as we have our legal system, education system and parliament here in Edinburgh. As other poster note - Scotland and England are themselves the result of joining together once independent parts into units that last pretty well - Scotland goes back to the bit 9th century and some of the component…

Hm, I don't think "huge" applies to the UK.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#24

Post by rawTruthHurts »

Oletros wrote: post #9
fsloth wrote: post #3

I have not yet met an analysis that would explain why a huge governmental body to politically rule the entire Europe would be a good thing. Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Most successful large systems grow organically and with time or are forced into a unified whole by a huge effort at control. And th…

> Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Spain

Is not doing too well.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#25

Post by jkot »

a_bonobo wrote: post #4
fsloth wrote: post #3

I have not yet met an analysis that would explain why a huge governmental body to politically rule the entire Europe would be a good thing. Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Most successful large systems grow organically and with time or are forced into a unified whole by a huge effort at control. And th…

As a counter-example: Germany as a country has a very short history - "pan-germanism" was a movement to unify all German-speaking countries, which included quite a bit of Poland, Austria and Switzerland. There were 39 states in the first German Bund ~1870, there were way more states in the preceding Holy Roman Empire (that one included what's now the Netherlands, Belgium, parts of Italy etc.). These were merged into…

Holy Roman Empire started around 800AD.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#26

Post by mrb »

nkuttler wrote: post #10

Nobody I know wants United States of Europe. The European Union is completely undemocratic at it's core, our national leaders have made sure that the electorate has minimal powers and influence over their supranational policing. Sovereignty of the people conflicts with the sovereignty of nations.

Well let me be the first to disagree with you directly. As a French citizen, I WANT a United States of Europe. I strongly believe that a more politically and legally united Europe is likely to improve overall economic circumstances and quality of life of the average European. Yes this means my taxes being set by a European body, relatively richer countries (like mine) helping poorer countries, etc, but all these things are the right things to do.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#27

Post by rbehrends »

dogma1138 wrote: post #13
cm2187 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only undemocratic because electors do not seem to care who they send to the EU. But MEP are elected, and the officials that are not elected are nominated by elected officials. I think the only viable EU is a United States of Europe, in which the current countries disappear, and you only have a Federal state and what is currently regions in the current countries. Whether a EU is desirable for the UK is another de…

The European Parliament has no real power. The legislative and executive powers of the union are held by the council of Europe which isn't an elected body.

> The European Parliament has no real power.

The European Parliament elects the European Commission and can force its resignation through a vote of no confidence (the latter happened to the Santer Commission).

Jean-Claude Juncker technically has more democratic legitimacy than David Cameron; he was elected by a number of representatives standing for a majority of the electorate.

Practically all EU legislation requires a majority in the European Parliament and a qualified majority in the Council of the European Union (the upper house of the EU legislature, which represents the democratically elected governments of the member states).

The problem is that democratic legitimacy alone does not functioning institutions make.

> The legislative and executive powers of the union are held by the council of Europe which isn't an elected body.

The Council of Europe [1] is an intergovernmental body that has nothing to do with the EU. If you mean the Council of the European Union, that is (as mentioned above) the upper house of the legislature, but has no executive powers (those lie with the Commission and the member states) and all its members represent the democratically elected governments of the member states.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#28

Post by louhike »

vidarh wrote: post #15
nkuttler wrote: post #10

Nobody I know wants United States of Europe. The European Union is completely undemocratic at it's core, our national leaders have made sure that the electorate has minimal powers and influence over their supranational policing. Sovereignty of the people conflicts with the sovereignty of nations.

This is exactly why some people want a United States of Europe: The EU institutions as they stand are giant hacks to try incrementally to forge a union out of sovereign nations, and the governance reflects this in that the governments involved do not have the authority to cede the sovereignty necessary to clean up the hacks without constitutional changes or referendums. Properly done, a reformed EU where these hacks…

And people are getting more nationalists because of the state of the economy. A more unifed EU would be interesting but a bigchallenge because of the diversity of languages/cultures. I would love to see it happen in my lifetime but I'm not really optimistic.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#29

Post by Kurtz79 »

nkuttler wrote: post #10

Nobody I know wants United States of Europe. The European Union is completely undemocratic at it's core, our national leaders have made sure that the electorate has minimal powers and influence over their supranational policing. Sovereignty of the people conflicts with the sovereignty of nations.

I do want the United States of Europe.

The alternative is the return of walls, nationalisms and wars, which has been the natural state of affairs in Europe for 99.9% of its history (100 years ago the Ministry of Defense was called Ministry of War for a reason).

The iteration we have at the moment is far from efficient, far from perfect, far from fair, but it's better than anything that has come before.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#30

Post by wolfgke »

a_bonobo wrote: post #4
fsloth wrote: post #3

I have not yet met an analysis that would explain why a huge governmental body to politically rule the entire Europe would be a good thing. Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Most successful large systems grow organically and with time or are forced into a unified whole by a huge effort at control. And th…

As a counter-example: Germany as a country has a very short history - "pan-germanism" was a movement to unify all German-speaking countries, which included quite a bit of Poland, Austria and Switzerland. There were 39 states in the first German Bund ~1870, there were way more states in the preceding Holy Roman Empire (that one included what's now the Netherlands, Belgium, parts of Italy etc.). These were merged into…

Mainly the war against the Napoleon empire united the German states in the 19th century and lead to the national movement.
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