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Is it just me or is networking really hard?

gafferongames.com

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Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#91

Post by Cederfjard »

ggambetta wrote: post #61
Goladus wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I consider it very bad taste for you to sanctimoniously criticize Gaffer's tone to promote your own work. Sometimes a good rant is a very effective way to communicate. PS http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

You are probably right -- it was bad taste. I got a bit annoyed by the tone of the article; I don't think personal insults have a place in a technical discussion. I taught Computer Graphics for several years, and I came across two kinds of students: uninterested, so no matter what you do they probably won't learn; and interested and trying hard but not understanding, in which case it's my responsibility as the teache…

To me, it feels like the biggest gripe isn't with people who don't understand, but with those who claim they do when they don't. It's always frustrating to see people talk confidently out of their ass, especially when they're criticising you.

I'm usually not bothered by insults or harsh language, so perhaps we're viewing this post through different lenses.

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#93

Post by nickpsecurity »

ggambetta wrote: post #61
Goladus wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I consider it very bad taste for you to sanctimoniously criticize Gaffer's tone to promote your own work. Sometimes a good rant is a very effective way to communicate. PS http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

You are probably right -- it was bad taste. I got a bit annoyed by the tone of the article; I don't think personal insults have a place in a technical discussion. I taught Computer Graphics for several years, and I came across two kinds of students: uninterested, so no matter what you do they probably won't learn; and interested and trying hard but not understanding, in which case it's my responsibility as the teache…

I have mixed feelings about it. A student with character will at least read the material, try to understand it, and then ask questions about confusing points. So, I put it to the test by loading up the article the Redditer saw. First paragraph explained it's part of a series with this link:

http://gafferongames.com/networking-for-game-programmers/

Very first link explained some of what Reddit poster asked with others covering how to solve the problem and why each method was used. Reading that person's post shows he or she took a casual glance at Part 4, didn't attempt to read rest, drew conclusions, then smeared same article on Reddit, then pretended to know what he or she was talking about on advanced aspects, and then asked some questions. This is the kind of behavior that makes the Internet drop verbal bombs on people as punishment and to deter future instances of laziness and arrogance.

So, when seeing this, the writer has several choices: reward the behavior by rewriting their articles points in new comment for just that lazy person w/ specific references to things he or she ignored; link back to original w/ guidance on specific parts he or she ignored; blast him or her for being a lazy idiot who writes criticisms of stuff he or she doesn't even read. I think the latter is an entirely valid strategy in such a situation. It has the side benefit of preparing the person for the fact that the Internet will drop bombs on them when they display laziness, ignorance, and sense of authority at the same time. Hopefully the deterrent effect kicks in with the poster reading the next article and its links first. And only then questioning or criticizing part of it.

Less likely to get rants that way from that writer, other writers, FOSS projects, and anyone else that doesn't tolerate such bad behavior. You're much more patient than most. Nothing wrong with that either. Let's just differentiate between people making solid attempt to learn and people like this poster. Nobody's insulting the former. If they did, I'd totally agree with you. Far as this poster, I'd have grilled him or her too.

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#94

Post by AnthonyMouse »

bpicolo wrote: post #65
mikehollinger wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this. I'll chime in as someone with a skill set that is completely not special (linux application development, and hardware / firmware / software integration), but in certain circles, is unique since it doesn't involve JavaScript (yet). I think the question is too vague, but I've asked a similar question: To kernel hackers (not application developers) - Tell me what you know about the Linux boot process To anyone wit…

> use of a feature or function without understanding why and how it works can lead to really interesting performance problems, even if the code is functionally correct Which you shouldn't worry about until a profile shows it's an issue. Otherwise, having a basic understanding of data structure usage is the actual critical bit

That doesn't necessarily work at the level of fundamental data structures. If you make the same mistake in 1500 different places the profiler won't show any of them as particularly hot but your program will still be slow.

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#95

Post by nickpsecurity »

Cederfjard wrote: post #91
ggambetta wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are probably right -- it was bad taste. I got a bit annoyed by the tone of the article; I don't think personal insults have a place in a technical discussion. I taught Computer Graphics for several years, and I came across two kinds of students: uninterested, so no matter what you do they probably won't learn; and interested and trying hard but not understanding, in which case it's my responsibility as the teache…

To me, it feels like the biggest gripe isn't with people who don't understand, but with those who claim they do when they don't. It's always frustrating to see people talk confidently out of their ass, especially when they're criticising you. I'm usually not bothered by insults or harsh language, so perhaps we're viewing this post through different lenses.

I expressed the same view here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10212003

I think the person didn't even read the articles but smeared them anyway. Blasting such a person is entirely justified. That the rant included useful information, too, was quite generous.

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#96

Post by [deleted] »

OliverJones wrote: post #39

I sometimes ask the question "how does the internet work?" in interviews. The vague and wrong answers I hear are astonishing. I'm looking for a basic understanding of the layering of TCP, or RDP, or ICMP (or anything actually) on top of IP. I don't get that level of insight much. The people who do have that insight usually can go deeper -- slow-start, BGP, etc. I wonder if we have a modern version of C.P. Snow's mid-…

[deleted]

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#97

Post by VLM »

Panoramix wrote: post #43
OliverJones wrote: post #39

I sometimes ask the question "how does the internet work?" in interviews. The vague and wrong answers I hear are astonishing. I'm looking for a basic understanding of the layering of TCP, or RDP, or ICMP (or anything actually) on top of IP. I don't get that level of insight much. The people who do have that insight usually can go deeper -- slow-start, BGP, etc. I wonder if we have a modern version of C.P. Snow's mid-…

You have to stop at some point. Or do you go in depth into the workings of >10Gbps transceivers? the quantum mechanics of optical fibers? how to they manufacture top-notch photodiodes anyway? You can literally spend a lifetime in these depths.

The question is a stealth customer support question. I'm not talking about interviewing for customer support, but unless you're hiring a hermit they'll be talking to other, probably non-technical people.

I guess the standard HN car analogy would be asking a car mechanic how suspension works and you want to hire the mechanic that makes the questioner happy and comfortable and feels informed, not the mechanic who says F off noob LMGTFY or gets "stuck" in a deep corner of Hookes law analysis of torsion bars vs axial springs regardless of questioners interest or simply starts making stuff up about left handed crescent wrenches and frequency grease. Also you want a reasonably fast answer, not beating around the bush for an hour without figuring out what the customer is looking for.

Its not just dealing with non-techies anyway. I could elaborate at length on ye olde FDDI 10b/8b optical code making analogies with good old AMI/B8ZS encoding on T1 circuits to maintain clock sync, but I might have to talk to a guy about 2015-era photodiode manufacture trivia or the photodiode guy might have to talk trivia with me, and its interesting to see reactions. Usually tech people get along better with tech people even if non-tech people ask the same question which is kind of interesting.

As a strategy to "win" at an interview its pretty hard to beat a table turning approach of you tell me your mental model and I'll be your tour guide as we straighten out misconceptions as you steer us down the path to whatever it is you want answered or you reach your fill of answers. Gotta be brave for this one if they inevitably take some weird side detour, and yes they will notice if you start steering away from your own weak spot.

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#98

Post by codingdave »

limelight wrote: post #86
codingdave wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It is like FizzBuzz for sysadmins. Being able to answer does not mean you should get the job, but an utter failure to answer should absolutely disqualify you. Once you make that basic determination, other questions should be used to judge actual fit for the job at hand.

> I disagree. It is like FizzBuzz for sysadmins. Why would you give a "FizzBuzz for sysadmins" question to full-stack developers though?

Ah, good point. I jumped tracks there.

But it may still be a valid question, you just would not expect the same level of detail. I do believe that developers should at least understand the basic concepts of how the web works. Maybe not the structure of a TCP packet, but certainly how DNS and IP addressing work, and the flow of data between a server and a client as web/mobile apps are loaded.

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#99

Post by jokoon »

ggambetta wrote: post #5

I've written a series of articles about this topic: http://gabrielgambetta.com/fast_paced_multiplayer.html It's usually well received, perhaps because it builds the ideas from the ground up and does not include the words "What the fuck is wrong with you?" .

Sometimes inviting the reader to ask himself question or be curious about the tools he's using can be important. Latency is not often taken in consideration when teaching networking. So many consider TCP to be the standard versus UDP, which needs to be clarified.

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#100

Post by VLM »

gue5t wrote: post #79
Panoramix wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to stop at some point. Or do you go in depth into the workings of >10Gbps transceivers? the quantum mechanics of optical fibers? how to they manufacture top-notch photodiodes anyway? You can literally spend a lifetime in these depths.

What are some good resources for learning about >10Gbps transceivers (and high-speed communication in general)? I'm not sure where to start a Wikipedia crawl.

Very little over 10G exists on any single wavelength, its all in stacking at different wavelengths. Much as your cabletv has a zillion 6MHz wide channels holding HDTV or whatever, you can run 4, 10, whatever, 10G ethernet light wavelengths on a piece of fiber at slightly different colors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavelength-division_multiplexi...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_optical_networking

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Gigabit_Ethernet

Note the difference between latency and bandwidth... infiniband isn't really all that fast, but it is very low latency. Infiniband-FDR "fourteen data rate" is technically over your speed criteria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfiniBand

You start having problems with infinitely narrow pulses because glass isn't linear enough and lasers aren't monochromatic enough, and multipath etc.

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