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Is it just me or is networking really hard?

gafferongames.com

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Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#61

Post by ggambetta »

Goladus wrote: post #37
ggambetta wrote: post #5

I've written a series of articles about this topic: http://gabrielgambetta.com/fast_paced_multiplayer.html It's usually well received, perhaps because it builds the ideas from the ground up and does not include the words "What the fuck is wrong with you?" .

Personally, I consider it very bad taste for you to sanctimoniously criticize Gaffer's tone to promote your own work. Sometimes a good rant is a very effective way to communicate. PS http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

You are probably right -- it was bad taste. I got a bit annoyed by the tone of the article; I don't think personal insults have a place in a technical discussion.

I taught Computer Graphics for several years, and I came across two kinds of students: uninterested, so no matter what you do they probably won't learn; and interested and trying hard but not understanding, in which case it's my responsibility as the teacher to find a way to get the idea into their heads.

In this latter case I believe asking someone who is trying (but failing) to understand what I'm saying "What the fuck is wrong with you?" doesn't lead to better understanding on their part. Yes, I promote my own work, but this is because I feel it caters to a public that is usually left out -- the absolute beginner. The kind of people who are missing a mental leap or two to get the concepts but are either ignored or essentially called idiots for not understanding.

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#62

Post by [deleted] »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #26
Mithaldu wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since your players don't seem to be affecting each other a lot, you might even be able to go with simple TCP. UDP is needed when latency matters a LOT, which is mainly when people fight one another.

I believe World of Warcraft and some other MMORPGs use TCP, since latency isn't too big of a deal. Note that they do some things to compensate for this, however, like making players not collide with each other.

[deleted]

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#63

Post by desdiv »

triclohme wrote: post #60
Mithaldu wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glenn's articles are also well received and go in fact into much more detail, with code examples of various pieces of infrastructure. He's been writing them based on patreon donations for a while now: https://www.patreon.com/gafferongames This one is just a frustrated vent at people who don't understand the difference between TCP/UDP, don't make the effort to learn about it, but feel the need to espouse about it. --…

Nobody cares if they get hell banned here. It's a bunch of pricks, what do you expect?

I was hellbanned for a while and didn't know it until someone told me.

I emailed the mods and they told me they never banned me and that it must've been a technical glitch.

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#65

Post by bpicolo »

mikehollinger wrote: post #48
akerl_ wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This goes on the list of interview questions that's great at letting the interviewer claim pretty much any candidate they want to discard is unworthy of the position. It's the tech community's variant of a voting literacy test. If you ask me "how does the internet work" and what you really want is details on the underlying protocols, at around the range of TCP/IP, why aren't you actually asking for that? Your questio…

this. I'll chime in as someone with a skill set that is completely not special (linux application development, and hardware / firmware / software integration), but in certain circles, is unique since it doesn't involve JavaScript (yet). I think the question is too vague, but I've asked a similar question: To kernel hackers (not application developers) - Tell me what you know about the Linux boot process To anyone wit…

> use of a feature or function without understanding why and how it works can lead to really interesting performance problems, even if the code is functionally correct

Which you shouldn't worry about until a profile shows it's an issue. Otherwise, having a basic understanding of data structure usage is the actual critical bit

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#66

Post by BatFastard »

Panoramix wrote: post #43
OliverJones wrote: post #39

I sometimes ask the question "how does the internet work?" in interviews. The vague and wrong answers I hear are astonishing. I'm looking for a basic understanding of the layering of TCP, or RDP, or ICMP (or anything actually) on top of IP. I don't get that level of insight much. The people who do have that insight usually can go deeper -- slow-start, BGP, etc. I wonder if we have a modern version of C.P. Snow's mid-…

You have to stop at some point. Or do you go in depth into the workings of >10Gbps transceivers? the quantum mechanics of optical fibers? how to they manufacture top-notch photodiodes anyway? You can literally spend a lifetime in these depths.

And the complexity is growing every second. Its glorious and confounding. I want a million life times to learn it all! I feel the learning is like living in a fractal. Just as you feel that you grasp the scale of it, you see a whole new level of complexity.

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#67

Post by userbinator »

Panoramix wrote: post #43
OliverJones wrote: post #39

I sometimes ask the question "how does the internet work?" in interviews. The vague and wrong answers I hear are astonishing. I'm looking for a basic understanding of the layering of TCP, or RDP, or ICMP (or anything actually) on top of IP. I don't get that level of insight much. The people who do have that insight usually can go deeper -- slow-start, BGP, etc. I wonder if we have a modern version of C.P. Snow's mid-…

You have to stop at some point. Or do you go in depth into the workings of >10Gbps transceivers? the quantum mechanics of optical fibers? how to they manufacture top-notch photodiodes anyway? You can literally spend a lifetime in these depths.

I think stopping at the MAC level would be a good place, unless you're interviewing for an EE job in which case the higher layers aren't so important.

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#68

Post by rch »

ggambetta wrote: post #5

I've written a series of articles about this topic: http://gabrielgambetta.com/fast_paced_multiplayer.html It's usually well received, perhaps because it builds the ideas from the ground up and does not include the words "What the fuck is wrong with you?" .

The phrase you're apparently concerned with here is preceeded by:

"I swear you guys are like the fucking climate change deniers of network programming."

I appreciate the sentiment in context.

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#69

Post by vinceguidry »

akerl_ wrote: post #46
OliverJones wrote: post #39

I sometimes ask the question "how does the internet work?" in interviews. The vague and wrong answers I hear are astonishing. I'm looking for a basic understanding of the layering of TCP, or RDP, or ICMP (or anything actually) on top of IP. I don't get that level of insight much. The people who do have that insight usually can go deeper -- slow-start, BGP, etc. I wonder if we have a modern version of C.P. Snow's mid-…

This goes on the list of interview questions that's great at letting the interviewer claim pretty much any candidate they want to discard is unworthy of the position. It's the tech community's variant of a voting literacy test. If you ask me "how does the internet work" and what you really want is details on the underlying protocols, at around the range of TCP/IP, why aren't you actually asking for that? Your questio…

> If you ask me "how does the internet work" and what you really want is details on the underlying protocols, at around the range of TCP/IP, why aren't you actually asking for that?

Because the more specific the question, the less likely any interviewee is going to be able to answer it correctly.

> If that's not relevant for the position (it's almost certainly not for most "full-stack" engineers), switch to asking questions that are relevant to the work they'll actually be doing.

A full-stack engineering position is really broad in scope. You need to be able to handle any type of web-related task they throw at you. From architecting new features to troubleshooting slowness. You're expected to be a hammer they can swing at all their technical problems, which all look like nails to them. Don't like it? Too bad, that's the job.

Where a general "how does the Internet work" question fits in is, ok, you've got complaints coming in from customer service about site slowness. How do you start to troubleshoot this problem? At what point can you just say, "oh, it's not us, it's with the Internet," and will you be able to explain why it's not us to the satisfaction of the people paying you to know about these things? The more abstract, fundamental knowledge you have about how the Internet works, the more you can start to nail down the scope of the problem.

Also, some problems will have you writing custom protocols. It helps to not get lost.

Re: Is it just me or is networking really hard?

#70

Post by rayiner »

OliverJones wrote: post #39

I sometimes ask the question "how does the internet work?" in interviews. The vague and wrong answers I hear are astonishing. I'm looking for a basic understanding of the layering of TCP, or RDP, or ICMP (or anything actually) on top of IP. I don't get that level of insight much. The people who do have that insight usually can go deeper -- slow-start, BGP, etc. I wonder if we have a modern version of C.P. Snow's mid-…

That question might be a conceit. I like to think that stuff is pretty important--I used to do that level of dev for a living. But does it really matter? That stuff is all pretty well abstracted these days. When was the last time the three-way handshake affected anyone?

I'd compare it to the fact that I know jack shit about how cars work. I can't tell a spark plug from a ball bearing--I just take my car to the dealer when it makes a funny noise and keep writing checks until it goes away. And I'm okay with that.

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