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Bitcoin's Shared Ledger Technology: Money's New Operating System

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Re: Bitcoin's Shared Ledger Technology: Money's New Operating System

#81
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The industrial value of gold is far below its trade value. And the value in jewelry is largely due to its perceived cost - otherwise any number of alloys that look the same would have just as astronomical cost. Just look at diamonds where nearly the whole retail value is based on de Beers marketing and industrial diamonds are in a different class.

> The industrial value of gold is far below its trade value Huh? Don't supply and demand meet at price? Isn't that mainstream economic theory? If the price of gold went over its industrial value, or electrical coating value, or value as a tooth filling - then, as mainstream economic theory goes, demand falls as the price rises. The fact that wire manufacturers, dentists, industry etc. buy gold shows that it is tradin…

> > The industrial value of gold is far below its trade value

> Huh? Don't supply and demand meet at price? Isn't that mainstream economic theory?

Supply and demand have nothing to do with inherent value. You said it yourself: supply and demand meet at a price. I can personally value gold at $0, yet can resonably expect to sell it at a higher price tomorrow than I could buy it today.

Have a look at palladium. That metal has even higher industrial value than gold, and is rarer. Yet the market price per ounce is drastically lower than that of gold.

Re: Bitcoin's Shared Ledger Technology: Money's New Operating System

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again you think that those blockchains will be publicly accessible which is incorrect, they'll have their own blockchains for their own settlement, maybe they'll have some sub-chains in the long run for end-users but still you can bet your house on that they'll find a way to ensure that users can't simply join the blockchain "fully" (e.g. find a way to separate wallets from mining, like BC does with mining pools for…

Yes but the price to write to the Blockchain is so low, a few cents that it's really accessible to everyone. I think Bitcoin is still a very significant development purely because it's completely independent from the existing global financial system.

That's a choice not a fact, not to mention that they can simply block off the blockchain from the internet just like they do with SWIFTNet and other financial networks.

Re: Bitcoin's Shared Ledger Technology: Money's New Operating System

#83

Bitcoin and blockchain enthusiasts have been claiming that bitcoin (or etherum) is going to take the world by storm any day now, yet all I ever see anywhere are big claims (revolutionizing payments, disrupting remittance, ending wars, freeing the people, destroying the banks etc, ad nauseam) with very little substance and lots of scams, frauds and dead-end ventures. Dark markets, internet gambling and a handful of ot…

"all I ever see anywhere are big claims with very little substance"

Bitcoin is certainly growing. Consider that in 6 years: it went from zero to over 100 000 merchants accepting it (including big names like Microsoft, Dell, Expedia, Newegg, Overstock, etc), from zero to millions of users worldwide, from a market cap of zero to over $3 billion dollars, etc. If someone had predicted Bitcoin would reach these milestones within 6 years when the software was first released in 2009, you would have called that person a lunatic. Yet this happened. Reflect on this for a minute before saying you see nothing.

Bitcoin is a good example of a disruptive technology. If it succeeds, it will happen slowly over time (5, 10, 20 years...) and there will be no special "that's-the-day-bitcoin-won" moment. So don't hold your breath for one.

"the general population just has no use for it"

It has many real-world practical benefits: http://www.coindesk.com/information/why-use-bitcoin/ I would be curious to hear your counter-argument for each of these points.

For example a person in China can instantaneously send bitcoins to his relative living in the US, who can then spend them within minutes on electronics or house stuff on Newegg or Overstock. This is, in itself, incredible. This is fast, reliable, and avoids stupid limits or problems of legacy financial systems, like wire transfers taking days, China exerting capital controls, Paypal suddenly freezing your account because the large amount being transferred triggered a false fraud alert, etc.

Another example: I can't even pay my $2700 monthly rent to my landlord electronically even though we both have checking accounts at the same bank (Wells Fargo), because they limit internet transfers to $2000 a month due to a policy chosen by their fraud and risk analysts. How annoying! Bitcoin lets me pay my landlord without problems because no one is here to tell me how much of my own money I am allowed to spend.

I am not saying that I want to use Bitcoin for every single transaction, eg. paying my lunch at the restaurant, but for certain types of needs like the two examples above, Bitcoin is very useful.

Re: Bitcoin's Shared Ledger Technology: Money's New Operating System

#84
> Express now collect 1% to 3% of domestic credit and debit transactions, generating more than $70 billion a year in fees in the U.S. market alone. “That’s a tax on all payments,” says Wedbush analyst Luria. With Bitcoin that goes practically to zero.

There are and will be also tx fees for Bitcoin.

> Here’s how primitive the infrastructure is now: The Bitcoin blockchain can currently handle 7 transactions a second

That's not an infrastracture issue but an intentional limitation by design.

[http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-keeps-th...]

Re: Bitcoin's Shared Ledger Technology: Money's New Operating System

#85
post #28
post #4

One of two things: I either do not understand Wall Street's obsession with blockchainesque technologies, or Wall Street's obsession with it is totally emblematic of their buzzword-obsessed technology-ignorant groupthink that fried the tech industry in the late 90's. I'm seeing companies like this pop up all over the place. Blythe Masters's new venture[1], which made the cover of this month's Bloomberg Business, seems…

>"Bitcoin technologies solved some very important problems in the creation of currencies: double spending, decentralization, cost distribution, &c. These are not problems that need to be solved in securities trading. One company running on one platform doesn't have a double spendng problem. Decentralization is irrelevant. And cost is no issue." You're thinking of the securities trading of today, which has its roots i…

Bitcoin is way, way more than a currency. It allows assets to flow like email. And that is just the beginning.

Bitcoin is not required for that, it's not even very good at it.

Cryptographic signing of assets, asymmetric public-key cryptography, digital certificates, etc are not unique to bitcoin and a far simpler system with far fewer fundamental flaws and third party dependencies could be constructed if you want to track assets and replace paper certificates. Trustless, pseudo-anonymous transactions are significantly less useful than verified identity transactions with reversibility, central authorities, regulation, insurance, etc. There are a lot of properties of bitcoin that make it wildly unsuitable for tracking financial assets (or as a digital currency).

Would you trust a Russian stock market?...Your reluctance to engage in these markets means entrepreneurs there do not have access to capital.

How does Bitcoin solve the problems of world peace and corrupt regimes? A simple rubber-hose attack will render up your key or the computer your coins reside on just as it will any other asset, and other assets can be appropriated whether stakes of ownership are stored via the blockchain or not.

Re: Bitcoin's Shared Ledger Technology: Money's New Operating System

#86
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Access isn't free, but anyone can write to it without permission. That makes it public. Individuals couldn't compete with SWIFT because they had no way to coordinate their actions. Public databases change that. The first phase will be financial institutions using blockchains to lower their costs. The second phase will be financial institutions pursuing new business models around blockchains anyone can access every ti…

Again you think that those blockchains will be publicly accessible which is incorrect, they'll have their own blockchains for their own settlement, maybe they'll have some sub-chains in the long run for end-users but still you can bet your house on that they'll find a way to ensure that users can't simply join the blockchain "fully" (e.g. find a way to separate wallets from mining, like BC does with mining pools for…

That is correct. The major financial organisations currently working on "blockchain technologies" aren't working with the Bitcoin blockchain - they're typically working on private (or consortium) blockchains e.g. for clearing house like functionality.

Re: Bitcoin's Shared Ledger Technology: Money's New Operating System

#87
post #83

Bitcoin and blockchain enthusiasts have been claiming that bitcoin (or etherum) is going to take the world by storm any day now, yet all I ever see anywhere are big claims (revolutionizing payments, disrupting remittance, ending wars, freeing the people, destroying the banks etc, ad nauseam) with very little substance and lots of scams, frauds and dead-end ventures. Dark markets, internet gambling and a handful of ot…

"all I ever see anywhere are big claims with very little substance" Bitcoin is certainly growing. Consider that in 6 years: it went from zero to over 100 000 merchants accepting it (including big names like Microsoft, Dell, Expedia, Newegg, Overstock, etc), from zero to millions of users worldwide, from a market cap of zero to over $3 billion dollars, etc. If someone had predicted Bitcoin would reach these milestones…

I've seen you make numerous posts in support of bitcoin in the past that are far better than the article you have linked. In fact I find in the search for 'bitcoin plusses' people often put forward contradictory aspects of it, to support their agenda of presenting it in positive light. For example, full traceable, vs. anonymous. Deflationary vs. mine your own. Being a jack of all trades system, "money", money transfer, ledger based, anonymous, store of value and alternative banking system - means that it is internally conflicted.

> For example a person in China can instantaneously send bitcoins

Once they have bitcoins. Getting bitcoins without using local bitcoins requires use of the traditional financial system. It can also involve snake like middle men if the would be bitcoin user is not very savvy.

1. It's fast compared to international transfers, it's a little slow compared to using cash to buy things or bank transfers.

2. It's cheap - it's cheaper than western union, it's expensive when something goes wrong - you can't reverse/dispute transactions.

3. Central governments can’t take it away. Central governments have all the guns and can make up any laws provided they can be passed. Bitcoin is not a runaway success in Russia for example.

4. There are no chargebacks - this is a bug and a feature.

5. People can’t steal your payment information from merchants - they just go after the middle men - instead of TK Maxx getting hacked, one of the middle men will be. Or indeed the middle man runs away with the goods. That the middle men continue to exist points to inherent difficulties in managing your own wallet.

6. It isn’t inflationary - the number of bitcoins minted every year grows faster than inflation - ultimately it will stop. Then it will be deflationary because coins will be lost.

7. You don’t need to trust anyone else - au contraire - in every transaction you need trust, the same is true in bitcoin as any other system.

8. You own it - it works better as a transfer medium than a 'store of value' because the price fluctuates. In addition the network operators can decide to fork.

9. You can create your own money - sure, so can other people - yet somehow it's not inflationary.

Re: Bitcoin's Shared Ledger Technology: Money's New Operating System

#88
post #57

Bitcoin and blockchain enthusiasts have been claiming that bitcoin (or etherum) is going to take the world by storm any day now, yet all I ever see anywhere are big claims (revolutionizing payments, disrupting remittance, ending wars, freeing the people, destroying the banks etc, ad nauseam) with very little substance and lots of scams, frauds and dead-end ventures. Dark markets, internet gambling and a handful of ot…

> Of course, I'm probably just an idiot who doesn't "get" bitcoin Two more "idiots" who don't get Bitcoin are Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger. Munger says Bitcoins are "rat poison". It's possible they're just old fuddy duddies who "don't get it". It's also possible that, both being born during or before Herbert Hoover's presidency, that they've had decades of experience sniffing out what's valuable and what's not.

The article makes an analogy with the internet in 1994, which is when experienced technology "experts" such as Bill Gates were dismissing the internet as a "fad".

In my experience, the people who don't "get" it often don't distinguish between Bitcoin itself and the underlying technologies. It would be like identifying the internet in 1994 with one particular web browser, or web site, or startup. The transformative elements in this case are things like the distributed ledger for decentralised trust, the possibilities for automated micropayments by devices rather than people, and so on. For example, as per my other comment on this thread, most of the large finance companies which are investigating blockchain technologies are investigating private blockchains rather than the Bitcoin blockchain, but this distinction is often missed by the press in their reporting (indeed isn't an entirely clear distinction in this article).

Re: Bitcoin's Shared Ledger Technology: Money's New Operating System

#89

Bitcoin and blockchain enthusiasts have been claiming that bitcoin (or etherum) is going to take the world by storm any day now, yet all I ever see anywhere are big claims (revolutionizing payments, disrupting remittance, ending wars, freeing the people, destroying the banks etc, ad nauseam) with very little substance and lots of scams, frauds and dead-end ventures. Dark markets, internet gambling and a handful of ot…

The other explanation is that people invested in bitcoin want you to jump in order to increase the price of bitcoins.

Anyway, for me the biggest argument against bitcoin is that there is no way that its intentionally wasteful proof-of-work system can be actually cheaper and faster than the alternatives. Currently, this cost is hidden because blockchain maintenance is subsidized by newly-minted bitcoins being handed out to miners. If you take out this subsidy then each bitcoin transaction would actually cost around $10 worth of energy, which probably came from burning fossil fuels in China.

Re: Bitcoin's Shared Ledger Technology: Money's New Operating System

#90
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Miner fees mediate spam, not the transaction count. (which btw is likely to be enormously higher than 6tps)

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability#Scalability_targets > Today the Bitcoin network is restricted to a sustained rate of 7 tps due to the bitcoin protocol restricting block sizes to 1MB. I've heard the number from other sources as being 6 or 7 before too, particularly after the scale tests I believe. I know there's the blocksize increase debate which will make this comment inaccurate soon. Also, I believe that a 0…

There are numerous proposals on the table to scale past 7tps. The reason that they aren't implemented yet is because it hasn't been needed.
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