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What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

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Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#11

Post by revelation »

jdp23 wrote: post #3

Excellent point from Freada: "My first piece of advice is to stop thinking about yourself as a meritocracy. Because if you believe you’re a meritocracy and you have numbers like everybody who has released their data, the implicit message is that Caucasian men are better than everyone else. Because that’s who is overrepresented."

In a world where only white caucasian men can go to school, of course a meritocracy ends up being filled with them. You seem to imply there is some logical disconnect here when it's perfectly explainable.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#12

Post by jdp23 »

KirinDave wrote: post #9
millermp12 wrote: post #2

Question: What was the percentage of blacks and/or women at Lotus notes when Mitch sold? How many low-income/minority households is Mitch within walking distance of from his Berkeley compound? Diversity for thee, but not for me. Also, while we're discussing Things You Should Not Notice: what are the numbers as far as litigiousness of "protected" groups? If I'm looking to hire someone, non-protected status (whether it…

> What was the percentage of blacks and/or women at Lotus notes when Mitch sold? > How many low-income/minority households is Mitch within walking distance of from his Berkeley compound? > Diversity for thee, but not for me. Can I ask you a quick question here? What does any of this matter? Diversity isn't about protecting yourself from character assassination. It's about promoting fairness, equality, and opportunity…

Well said.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#13

Post by throwit542 »

KirinDave wrote: post #10
throwit542 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White men are over represented at large tech companies? White people make up around 80% of the U.S. population [0]. They make up less than 60% of tech workers at Google[1] and less than 55% of tech workers at Facebook[2]. That's underrepresented. Asian Americans make up less than 5% of the U.S. population[0], but almost 35% of tech workers at Google[1] and 36% of tech employees at Facebook[2]. That's over representat…

Your argument is using some old data and substantially flawed reasoning and I'll let other people talk about it. But there is one thing I want to point out: It is possible to be both marginalized in one aspect and privileged in another. It is definitely the case for Asian Americans in tech. Very few will say they're not (in aggregate, individual experiences vary of course!) better off than other people of color in th…

>Your argument is using some old data and substantially flawed reasoning and I'll let other people talk about it

If I'm not mistaken, all of those sources are from 2015.

You seem to be interpreting my statement of the facts regarding demographics in the tech industry as as a statement that I believe Asian Americans are privileged. I'm not saying that. I think tech is the closest industry to an honest meritocracy that exists, and if there are more Asian Americans in tech than white people, then it's probably because of differences in ambition and the extent to which education is valued.

But, I brought up those stats not to make that point, just to prove the point that the way the media, and popular perception views diversity in tech is wrong.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#14

Post by throwit542 »

duaneb wrote: post #8
throwit542 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White men are over represented at large tech companies? White people make up around 80% of the U.S. population [0]. They make up less than 60% of tech workers at Google[1] and less than 55% of tech workers at Facebook[2]. That's underrepresented. Asian Americans make up less than 5% of the U.S. population[0], but almost 35% of tech workers at Google[1] and 36% of tech employees at Facebook[2]. That's over representat…

You think that 80% of the US is male, let alone white male? There are some big problems with your argument. And it's exactly this type of argument that is the problem: underrepresentation as a majority is far less of a problem than underrepresentation as a minority.

If you read my post more closely, I wasn't talking about white men, but white people. It's pretty clear that the facts show that women are underrepresented in tech.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#15

Post by [deleted] »

jdp23 wrote: post #3

Excellent point from Freada: "My first piece of advice is to stop thinking about yourself as a meritocracy. Because if you believe you’re a meritocracy and you have numbers like everybody who has released their data, the implicit message is that Caucasian men are better than everyone else. Because that’s who is overrepresented."

[deleted]

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#16

Post by Joeboy »

throwit542 wrote: post #14
duaneb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think that 80% of the US is male, let alone white male? There are some big problems with your argument. And it's exactly this type of argument that is the problem: underrepresentation as a majority is far less of a problem than underrepresentation as a minority.

If you read my post more closely, I wasn't talking about white men, but white people. It's pretty clear that the facts show that women are underrepresented in tech.

To be fair the combined overrepresentation of men and underrepresentation of white people may well mean white men are overrepresented, and you started your post with the words "White men". But yeah, in terms of ethnicity those figures are not what you would expect from reading some media representations of the tech industry. I'll be interested to hear what the big problems and flawed reasoning alluded to elsewhere are.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#17

Post by jdp23 »

duaneb wrote: post #7
jdp23 wrote: post #3

Excellent point from Freada: "My first piece of advice is to stop thinking about yourself as a meritocracy. Because if you believe you’re a meritocracy and you have numbers like everybody who has released their data, the implicit message is that Caucasian men are better than everyone else. Because that’s who is overrepresented."

Privilege increases merit via education and culture. Why would you ever assume meritocracy would naturally lead to a diverse workplace? A cursory glance through most "white" or "male" privilege arguments shows this is very much not true. Given that this is true, the responsible thing would be to both acknowledge that you want diversity and that certain groups are underserved in the field. How to resolve this in terms…

> Privilege increases merit

That definition of "merit" implies that whites have more merit than blacks (because they tend to be more privileged) and men have more merit than women. If your goal is to increase diversity, that's not a helpful definition.

> Why would you ever assume meritocracy would naturally lead to a diverse workplace?

Exactly. Any definition of "meritocracy" will have embedded biases, and so won't lead to a diverse workplace. That's why I saw this as such good advice.

> But I don't think it's responsible to not acknowledge that white men are not the best qualified candidates

If the definition of "best qualified" favors white men, then of course white men are more likely to be the "best qualified" candidates. It's a classic example of structural discrimination.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#18

Post by jdp23 »

revelation wrote: post #11
jdp23 wrote: post #3

Excellent point from Freada: "My first piece of advice is to stop thinking about yourself as a meritocracy. Because if you believe you’re a meritocracy and you have numbers like everybody who has released their data, the implicit message is that Caucasian men are better than everyone else. Because that’s who is overrepresented."

In a world where only white caucasian men can go to school, of course a meritocracy ends up being filled with them. You seem to imply there is some logical disconnect here when it's perfectly explainable.

No, I'm not implying a logical disconnect; I'm saying that if your goal is diversity, the notion of a "meritocracy" gets in the way. More in my comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10208825

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#19

Post by ebfe »

jdp23 wrote: post #18
revelation wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a world where only white caucasian men can go to school, of course a meritocracy ends up being filled with them. You seem to imply there is some logical disconnect here when it's perfectly explainable.

No, I'm not implying a logical disconnect; I'm saying that if your goal is diversity, the notion of a "meritocracy" gets in the way. More in my comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10208825

The goal isn't diversity, though. The goal is meritocracy, with diversity only desirable insofar as it enables meritocracy.

Re: What the Kapors Have Learned from Years of Working on Diversity in Tech

#20

Post by striking »

KirinDave wrote: post #9
millermp12 wrote: post #2

Question: What was the percentage of blacks and/or women at Lotus notes when Mitch sold? How many low-income/minority households is Mitch within walking distance of from his Berkeley compound? Diversity for thee, but not for me. Also, while we're discussing Things You Should Not Notice: what are the numbers as far as litigiousness of "protected" groups? If I'm looking to hire someone, non-protected status (whether it…

> What was the percentage of blacks and/or women at Lotus notes when Mitch sold? > How many low-income/minority households is Mitch within walking distance of from his Berkeley compound? > Diversity for thee, but not for me. Can I ask you a quick question here? What does any of this matter? Diversity isn't about protecting yourself from character assassination. It's about promoting fairness, equality, and opportunity…

Something something just-world fallacy.

http://www.spring.org.uk/2012/06/the-belief-in-a-just-world-...

> expensive

With the millions of dollars from diversity initiatives, I'm sure someone could pull it off.

Also, I think you're missing the entire "classism" thing. I'm Polish, and just because I'm white doesn't mean I have the world handed to me. Kind of the opposite actually, everything that I've ever gotten in life was thanks to fighting the system (whether it was my work or my parents' work).

I could say I deserve something, but honestly I don't really think I do. The world is not a fair place.

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