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Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

thoughtinfection.com

81–90 of 99 posts

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#81
post #3

Capital doesn't maximize capital; it maximizes productivity. In absence of controls, capital naturally flows to productivity in order to be maximized by the holders of capital; but only because productivity creates wealth, not the capital itself.

Productivity is the ratio of outputs to inputs. In an efficient competitive market, profit tends to zero. That would make capitalism a minimizer of productivity, as long as productivity is greater than 1 (otherwise the enterprise is not profitable).

Labour productivity, by economic definition, is the ratio of output to people. If most of the wealth generation in an organization is automated, labour productivity will be high, whereas if most of it is manual, labour productivity will be low, even when both organizations are producing the same amount of wealth.

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't you?

Replace drugs with machine and we already have such a thing. However the pleasure from drugs is stigmatized and prohibited, and the addiction to the pleasure machine is seen as life destroying.

IMO - it's not the pleasure itself that is stigmatized, but the side-effects. Side effects including deteriorating health of the user, as well as the occasional resorting to immoral or even criminal means to feed the habit.

There's also a whole dog-whistle aspect to the 'war on drugs' (e.g. massive differences in sentences on crack vs. cocaine offences)

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#83
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can call an ecosystem 'intelligent' if you want to, I suppose, but there's not really any way to discuss it as a 'maximizer' when it has no goals and no intentional behavior. You could as easily describe water as a 'gravitational potential' minimizer - it has a collective aggregate behavior that you can characterize, but that doesn't make it intelligent by most definitions of the word. >If capitalism didn't have…

Every time I start writing a response to this, I can't help but feel it will simply be misinterpreted. I thought my original response was pretty succinct and clear. If you'd like to continue, please select one discrepancy and I'll be happy to discuss it further with you.

Our disagreement may be definitional - your original response was succinct and clear, but did not make an argument, merely an assertion.

A) I see no reason that 'being made up of units which are intelligent' ought to classify a system as intelligent.

B) I see no way in which you can usefully talk about anything without intentional behavior as a 'maximizing intelligence'.

You can't call 'capitalism' the 'driver of our economy' for the same reason you can't call 'ecology' the 'driver of natural selection' or 'conflict' the 'driver of our military conquests'. You are conflating a system with the units in the system, and talking about an ecology of intelligent units as if it is satisfying some behavioral utility function.

'Capitalism' doesn't have a utility function, because it doesn't have decision-making capacity, which is pretty much the only prerequisite for intelligent behavior. It doesn't drive our economy, it is our economy. The actors in the system are corporations and humans (and governments, unions, and a few other united organizational structures), therefore those are the things which can exhibit intelligence.

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#84
post #72
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would I like to impose the experience machine to all of humanity or at least all those that I love? My answer doesn't change. Actually, I would go to great lengths to prevent imposing such a fate on humanity. I may be naive in thinking this but human emotions and euphoria can probably be boiled down to a chemical reaction in our brain such that brain activity of someone experiencing something pleasurable in "real lif…

Again, I don't think you are aware of what "indistinguishable from reality" actually entails. The capabilities are so extreme there that you'll have essentially created your own universe. And what do you care if you live in a different universe? You don't even understand this one well enough to know the difference. So you're basically making this decision on the grounds of your own ignorance. What if this world is a…

Fair point.

What I had originally thought of as an experience machine was drugs that would produce chemically equivalent reactions as those produced from our experiences.

Spiritual usually has an anthropomorphic meaning which is what I object to:

Defined as "of, relating to, or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things"

Maybe a better way of stating it is that I am not an empiricist that believes that sensory experience is the end-all be-all.

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Capital is commonly (and correctly) viewed as a "store of wealth", or as "the crystallisation of labour-time" Sorry, but what? I'm guessing that you don't even really believe this and that you don't even know what those phrases are supposed to mean. Why else would you put them in quotes -- twice? I can only guess that this is supposed to mean that capital somehow binds up prior effort into a claim on (others?) futur…

Dude. Smith (WoN) and Marx (Kapital). Know your sources before shooting your mouth off.

Read those a long time ago brah. You dispute what I said?

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#86

Capitalism depends on price theory, which predicts that making too many paperclips will cause them to be in glut and the price will drop. So a paperclip-maximizing AI might oughta be built to take that into account.

Point missed.

It's not that any one product is being produced. "Capital" (or profit or wealth) here is the combined market aggregate of all production. The problem is that this too, as with any single optima process, leads to madness.

In the case of capitalism, ecternalities, equity/equality, sustainability, and systemic global risk are all undervalued, and simple short-term profit maximisation tends strongly to "underproduce" these.

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#87

Capital is not what most people conceive of it to be. Capital is commonly (and correctly) viewed as a "store of wealth", or as "the crystallisation of labour-time" - but capital comes in different flavours, and when you deal with capital in the form of goods which provide an incremental benefit to the user, what you have is indeed capital, but when you deal with money... it's up to you whether it's capital or not. Of…

>Capital is commonly (and correctly) viewed as a "store of wealth", or as "the crystallisation of labour-time" Sorry, but what? I'm guessing that you don't even really believe this and that you don't even know what those phrases are supposed to mean. Why else would you put them in quotes -- twice? I can only guess that this is supposed to mean that capital somehow binds up prior effort into a claim on (others?) futur…

capital somehow binds up prior effort into a claim on (others?) future effort?

Actually, yes. Money is a lien on future production. Or demand rights. That's specifically what debt creates: an obligation to someone else for future efforts if the debtor.

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Capital is commonly (and correctly) viewed as a "store of wealth", or as "the crystallisation of labour-time" Sorry, but what? I'm guessing that you don't even really believe this and that you don't even know what those phrases are supposed to mean. Why else would you put them in quotes -- twice? I can only guess that this is supposed to mean that capital somehow binds up prior effort into a claim on (others?) futur…

capital somehow binds up prior effort into a claim on (others?) future effort? Actually, yes. Money is a lien on future production. Or demand rights. That's specifically what debt creates: an obligation to someone else for future efforts if the debtor.

Not all money is debt, though most is.

Debt is not a demand on future effort or production. Debt is merely an accounting artifact; it can make no real claims on the physical world.

Many will exert effort in exchange for money, but calling it a lien on future production is incorrect. No one has any obligation to perform effort in exchange for whatever it is that you call money.

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

capital somehow binds up prior effort into a claim on (others?) future effort? Actually, yes. Money is a lien on future production. Or demand rights. That's specifically what debt creates: an obligation to someone else for future efforts if the debtor.

Not all money is debt, though most is. Debt is not a demand on future effort or production. Debt is merely an accounting artifact; it can make no real claims on the physical world. Many will exert effort in exchange for money, but calling it a lien on future production is incorrect. No one has any obligation to perform effort in exchange for whatever it is that you call money.

Play with this thought for a while.

No, not all money is debt in the sense that it's loaned into existence. But it does create a general expectation, and quite often a legal obligation, to accept it as payment. That is, any money-denominated debt is fulfilled by a credible offer to pay in cash (unless previously otherwise negotiated).

Even if simply printed into existence, money is a right of demand, that is, if I run a printing press and drop-ship you a pallet-wrapped billion in Benjamins, you've got equal rights to anyone else to bid that money against anyone else on goods or products.

Capital wealth is similar: it's a legal fiction (though an awfully well established one) that by right of claim to some property, the owner thus has other capabilities, including, significantly, collateral for debts, which can be used to provide liquid debts. Hocking a ring at a pawn shop, home equity loan, corporate paper, or the very significant sovereign debt available to holders of petrochemical resource claims or reserve currency authorities

Aside: which is among the reasons why there's much hay made over claims of personal worth, the solvency of reserve currencies, and over whether and to what extent petrochemical reserves might be stranded -- above and beyond merely comparing net worth, these determine access to loans from others. Donald Trump and oil companies / oil-producing nations are notably testy about the first and second, much of the noise eminating from RT (and much echoed through ZeroHedge) are based on concerns over access to capital (Trump, Oil) and in weakening the dollar and through that, the United States' access to credit markets.

Since definitions of what property is are determined by law, precedent, force of arms, etc., you'll also see a lot of resorting to that as well.

But yes: money is ultimately a created fiction, a universally exchangeable good, whose fundamental supply is unlimited, a reality constrained largely by the fact that increasing its supply without restraint does lead to a dimunution in the exchange value of units currently in existence, and all instruments denominated in currency amounts (e.g., debts, bonds, contracts, etc.). Each individual currency unit is a demand on future production, though the increment of that demand is not itself fixed for all time (inflation/deflation).

There's more on this concept in Modern Monetary Theory. My own thoughts are independently conceived, but I'm finding it's quite similar.

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#90
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I start writing a response to this, I can't help but feel it will simply be misinterpreted. I thought my original response was pretty succinct and clear. If you'd like to continue, please select one discrepancy and I'll be happy to discuss it further with you.

Our disagreement may be definitional - your original response was succinct and clear, but did not make an argument, merely an assertion. A) I see no reason that 'being made up of units which are intelligent' ought to classify a system as intelligent. B) I see no way in which you can usefully talk about anything without intentional behavior as a 'maximizing intelligence'. You can't call 'capitalism' the 'driver of our…

Thanks so much for responding. I agree that a significant cause of our disagreement is definitional.

I'll get back to you either later this evening or tomorrow with a response that your comment deserves.

For now, there is billable work to be done.

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