Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer • Hacker News Board

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#31

Post by jsprogrammer » Wed, Sep 09, 2015, 4:36 PM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #8

Capital is not what most people conceive of it to be. Capital is commonly (and correctly) viewed as a "store of wealth", or as "the crystallisation of labour-time" - but capital comes in different flavours, and when you deal with capital in the form of goods which provide an incremental benefit to the user, what you have is indeed capital, but when you deal with money... it's up to you whether it's capital or not. Of…

>Capital is commonly (and correctly) viewed as a "store of wealth", or as "the crystallisation of labour-time"

Sorry, but what? I'm guessing that you don't even really believe this and that you don't even know what those phrases are supposed to mean. Why else would you put them in quotes -- twice?

I can only guess that this is supposed to mean that capital somehow binds up prior effort into a claim on (others?) future effort?

That is a fiction (likely told to you by someone with "capital"). It's a fine theory, but it is only that. There is no physicality to capital in your definition. It is purely a social construct.

A more traditional definition of capital is that it refers to a physical machine which substitutes labor.

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#32

Post by thiagoharry » Wed, Sep 09, 2015, 4:54 PM UTC

unoti wrote: post #30

The root problem here is not economics, it is basic human nature. Humans have forever been seeking to increase their power base at the expense of others, and been corruptible by greed. This is not new, and it is not limited to capitalism. It's basic human nature, and it's one of our key weaknesses.

I'm not seeking to increase my power base at the expense of others. If I would get less money doing something that would make the world a better place, I would happily choose this. Am I not human?

I see this kind of answer as a kind of explanation widely disseminated to justify our economic system as inevitable, but which have very little scientific basis. For me it's wishful thinking.

The kind of economic growth observed in capitalism and some of its characteristics like the cyclic crisis not related with natural changes like climate is something unique to our civilization. And it's a very new thing at the human history (less than 300 years). What will be the effects of these things at long scale is something still to be comprehended.

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#33

Post by kaffeemitsahne » Wed, Sep 09, 2015, 4:57 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #29

madaxe_again wrote: post #8

Capital is not what most people conceive of it to be. Capital is commonly (and correctly) viewed as a "store of wealth", or as "the crystallisation of labour-time" - but capital comes in different flavours, and when you deal with capital in the form of goods which provide an incremental benefit to the user, what you have is indeed capital, but when you deal with money... it's up to you whether it's capital or not. Of…

Some would disagree that the purpose of existence is to promote happiness. Robert Nozick offered this thought experiment to which I would not opt to maximize happiness: > Nozick asks us to imagine a machine that could give us whatever desirable or pleasurable experiences we could want. Psychologists have figured out a way to stimulate a person's brain to induce pleasurable experiences that the subject could not disti…

Why wouldn't you?

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#34

Post by Sakes » Wed, Sep 09, 2015, 5:00 PM UTC

unoti wrote: post #30

The root problem here is not economics, it is basic human nature. Humans have forever been seeking to increase their power base at the expense of others, and been corruptible by greed. This is not new, and it is not limited to capitalism. It's basic human nature, and it's one of our key weaknesses.

The problem with building arguments around human nature is that just about everything is human nature. Greed... Altruism...

* Edit for clarity *

So it can be invoked to justify almost any argument involving human behavior.

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#35

Post by karmakaze » Wed, Sep 09, 2015, 5:02 PM UTC

kaffeemitsahne wrote: post #33

bko wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some would disagree that the purpose of existence is to promote happiness. Robert Nozick offered this thought experiment to which I would not opt to maximize happiness: > Nozick asks us to imagine a machine that could give us whatever desirable or pleasurable experiences we could want. Psychologists have figured out a way to stimulate a person's brain to induce pleasurable experiences that the subject could not disti…

Why wouldn't you?

A game is more fun without the cheat-code.

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#36

Post by Retra » Wed, Sep 09, 2015, 5:04 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #29

madaxe_again wrote: post #8

Capital is not what most people conceive of it to be. Capital is commonly (and correctly) viewed as a "store of wealth", or as "the crystallisation of labour-time" - but capital comes in different flavours, and when you deal with capital in the form of goods which provide an incremental benefit to the user, what you have is indeed capital, but when you deal with money... it's up to you whether it's capital or not. Of…

Some would disagree that the purpose of existence is to promote happiness. Robert Nozick offered this thought experiment to which I would not opt to maximize happiness: > Nozick asks us to imagine a machine that could give us whatever desirable or pleasurable experiences we could want. Psychologists have figured out a way to stimulate a person's brain to induce pleasurable experiences that the subject could not disti…

The problem here is that you've created a scenario that talks about a single human brain, but "maximizing human happiness" doesn't refer to any single person's brain. It refers the state of our entire social environment as viewed through the aggregate of individual experience.

And you're probably vastly underestimating the complexity and comprehensiveness demanded of such a machine.

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#37

Post by Retra » Wed, Sep 09, 2015, 5:08 PM UTC

unoti wrote: post #30

The root problem here is not economics, it is basic human nature. Humans have forever been seeking to increase their power base at the expense of others, and been corruptible by greed. This is not new, and it is not limited to capitalism. It's basic human nature, and it's one of our key weaknesses.

It's not so basic that it can't be overcome.

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#38

Post by rndn » Wed, Sep 09, 2015, 5:17 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #29

madaxe_again wrote: post #8

Capital is not what most people conceive of it to be. Capital is commonly (and correctly) viewed as a "store of wealth", or as "the crystallisation of labour-time" - but capital comes in different flavours, and when you deal with capital in the form of goods which provide an incremental benefit to the user, what you have is indeed capital, but when you deal with money... it's up to you whether it's capital or not. Of…

Some would disagree that the purpose of existence is to promote happiness. Robert Nozick offered this thought experiment to which I would not opt to maximize happiness: > Nozick asks us to imagine a machine that could give us whatever desirable or pleasurable experiences we could want. Psychologists have figured out a way to stimulate a person's brain to induce pleasurable experiences that the subject could not disti…

I think this response has something to do with the fact that artificial stimulation is often regarded as deceptive in western culture. So the decision is heavily influenced by how people see it being judged by their social environment. You can achieve an interesting twist by asking: Would you hook your brain to a pleasure machine if everybody else agrees to use it too (and of course it wouldn't cause any social or cognitive side-effects, boredom, fatigue etc.)?

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#39

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 09, 2015, 5:17 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #29

madaxe_again wrote: post #8

Capital is not what most people conceive of it to be. Capital is commonly (and correctly) viewed as a "store of wealth", or as "the crystallisation of labour-time" - but capital comes in different flavours, and when you deal with capital in the form of goods which provide an incremental benefit to the user, what you have is indeed capital, but when you deal with money... it's up to you whether it's capital or not. Of…

Some would disagree that the purpose of existence is to promote happiness. Robert Nozick offered this thought experiment to which I would not opt to maximize happiness: > Nozick asks us to imagine a machine that could give us whatever desirable or pleasurable experiences we could want. Psychologists have figured out a way to stimulate a person's brain to induce pleasurable experiences that the subject could not disti…

[deleted]

Re: Capitalism is a paperclip maximizer

#40

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 09, 2015, 5:17 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #29

madaxe_again wrote: post #8

Capital is not what most people conceive of it to be. Capital is commonly (and correctly) viewed as a "store of wealth", or as "the crystallisation of labour-time" - but capital comes in different flavours, and when you deal with capital in the form of goods which provide an incremental benefit to the user, what you have is indeed capital, but when you deal with money... it's up to you whether it's capital or not. Of…

Some would disagree that the purpose of existence is to promote happiness. Robert Nozick offered this thought experiment to which I would not opt to maximize happiness: > Nozick asks us to imagine a machine that could give us whatever desirable or pleasurable experiences we could want. Psychologists have figured out a way to stimulate a person's brain to induce pleasurable experiences that the subject could not disti…

[deleted]