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You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing

torrentfreak.com

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Re: You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing

#61
post #12

The article assumes that if you defend public libraries, you must defend them for the same reason the author defends them, and that particular reason happens to fit well with file sharing. But there are other reasons to defend public libraries than simply the fact that they disseminate knowledge and this is worth carving out an exception in copyright. I think most people would defend public libraries on the basis of…

I think you're looking at it differently than Falkvinge (granted, he may be willfully contorting his perspective to whatever fits his argument.) Wikipedia says about the Libraries Act[1], "The Capitalist economic model had created shift patterns which left workers with free time[...] Campaigners felt that encouraging the lower classes to spend their free time on morally uplifting activities, such as reading, would promote greater social good." A committee reported, "the first step taken by a foreign writer was to consult a public library on the subject of his studies or composition; we find that no such auxiliary was at the service of the British intellect." So, the supposed reason (for the British, at least), was for the public good and intellect. The first sale doctrine is a legal defense, which is not the same as a reason public libraries should exist or why they are good.

This may be somewhat muddied by his use of "defend" everywhere, rather than something else. Anyway, I think he has a decent point, that libraries were last century's big threat to IP holders (would have liked to see some citations on the controversy though), the government decided a public good would be served with a smallish sacrifice from the industry, and that filesharing is a similar but much more efficient execution of that public service (but at perhaps too big of a cost to the IP holders.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Libraries_Act_1850

Re: You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing

#62
post #12

The article assumes that if you defend public libraries, you must defend them for the same reason the author defends them, and that particular reason happens to fit well with file sharing. But there are other reasons to defend public libraries than simply the fact that they disseminate knowledge and this is worth carving out an exception in copyright. I think most people would defend public libraries on the basis of…

I think you're looking at it differently than Falkvinge (granted, he may be willfully contorting his perspective to whatever fits his argument.) Wikipedia says about the Libraries Act[1], "The Capitalist economic model had created shift patterns which left workers with free time[...] Campaigners felt that encouraging the lower classes to spend their free time on morally uplifting activities, such as reading, would pr…

Well yes, I'm looking at it differently, that's my whole point. The article is saying that if you defend one you must defend the other. My point is that if you look at things from a different perspective then it's quite easy to defend one without defending the other.

It's all about whether you look at libraries as an exception to copyright which has been carved out for the public good, or whether you look at libraries as something that is naturally allowed within copyright.

Put it another way: the article argues on the basis of a library's purpose. I'm ignoring that, and merely looking at a library's right to exist. If you see the purpose coming first, and the right to exist being created on the basis of that purpose, then the argument in the article holds. If you see the right to exist coming first, and the purpose merely being why people take advantage of that right, then you get my position.

Maybe this is one of those American versus European things. It looks from my cursory examination (and I could easily be wrong, and welcome a more informed opinion from anyone who knows better) that the doctrine of first sale is an American thing, and European laws give more rights to the copyright holder.

Re: You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing

#63
People who value money over educating the public will support copyright, while people who value public education and free access to culture and media do not. It's really that simple. No argument's going to convince one side to hop on to the other. Unfortunately (for this matter), it's not 1850 anymore and the amount of people in power that value public education and culture (in the US at least) is virtually asymptotical to zero, thus the current laws we see demonizing copying.

Ironically, a lot of the people behind those laws, especially big tech companies, benefit greatly from a technically educated and skilled public that would not exist, or at least be much smaller, without piracy. Is it wrong for me to pirate a few thousand dollars worth of software, educate myself, and be able to contribute many million dollars worth of work to society? Copyright supporters certainly think so, but I'd argue that the benefits to the public far outweigh what the copyright owners wrongfully claim as "losses" but is really nothing more than wishful imagination of profits they would not have made anyway.

Of course, arguments for public benefits these days are unfashionable. The zeitgeist is to fight for the copyright holders to the end, despite the fact that most of the copyright holders are not actually the creators, not actually the people who would or would not benefit from copyright law. The fact that, for example, most artists on Spotify make about the same amount whether they're on the service or not is a whole other discussion and reason to end or modify copyright itself, but it certainly kills the argument that there would be no creative works if artists didn't get paid. That's actually the case currently and it's quite ironic to see the handful of extremely rich artists pretend to fight for the guy who made two dollars all last year while his record label and music service raked in millions. Copyright law mostly benefits scumbags who've never created anything worth perusing in their lives.

Re: You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing

#64
post #17

Yes, it is different. It differs in efficiency. Not an irrelevant difference. A public library is funded and maintained by the same community that uses it. The manual processes required to consume the material are a natural check in the process and the result is a mild shift in equilibrium. Communities benefit and libraries are legitimate customers, so publishers are at least still getting paid. File sharing's equili…

Do you think that peer to peer filesharing communities are not also funded and maintained by the community that uses it? I contend that this is exactly the case. There must also be an original legitimate customer of the work being shared, so the publisher is still getting paid. The difference does only lie in efficiency. In a world of ever-increasing efficiency, why do we shackle libraries to 20th Century levels of s…

Libraries legitimately own every copy they distribute. If they lend 10 copies of a book, 10 copies were paid for. They don't pay for one then Xerox 9 more.

File sharing exists explicitly to deny publishers payment for anything they distribute. 10,000 copies results in no compensation beyond the original.

Re: You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He claims that these are not copyright royalties, but rather a cultural grant.

Aha that helps, thank you. He's also wrong there, unfortunately. https://www.plrinternational.com/faqs/faqs.htm#legal

"There are no working PLR systems yet in the United States, South America, Africa or Asia." So the existence of this system in some places doesn't itself invalidate the argument in places without that system.

Re: You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't read fiction? Libraries have massive kids sections, I doubt they're reading Applied Chemistry.

I'm responding to your specific argument that this is all about knowledge-sharing when it's not.

I am equating "knowledge" and "entertainment" and not making a judgement on what constitutes entertainment. If it can be known, then it is knowledge, regardless of whether or not it is fiction. So by that definition, it is all about knowledge-sharing.

Re: You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing

#67
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're looking at it differently than Falkvinge (granted, he may be willfully contorting his perspective to whatever fits his argument.) Wikipedia says about the Libraries Act[1], "The Capitalist economic model had created shift patterns which left workers with free time[...] Campaigners felt that encouraging the lower classes to spend their free time on morally uplifting activities, such as reading, would pr…

Well yes, I'm looking at it differently, that's my whole point. The article is saying that if you defend one you must defend the other. My point is that if you look at things from a different perspective then it's quite easy to defend one without defending the other. It's all about whether you look at libraries as an exception to copyright which has been carved out for the public good, or whether you look at librarie…

Yeah, it does seem Europeans have more copyright rights, as others in the thread are citing copyright-based royalties that libraries have to pay (which kind of undermines his argument too.) I don't really know how the history/law worked, but at least the way he claims, "they made explicit exceptions to the copyright monopoly for the benefit of public access to culture and knowledge." I guess in America a special exception is not really needed. I think we're on the same page about the difference.

Re: You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing

#68
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yes, I'm looking at it differently, that's my whole point. The article is saying that if you defend one you must defend the other. My point is that if you look at things from a different perspective then it's quite easy to defend one without defending the other. It's all about whether you look at libraries as an exception to copyright which has been carved out for the public good, or whether you look at librarie…

Yeah, it does seem Europeans have more copyright rights, as others in the thread are citing copyright-based royalties that libraries have to pay (which kind of undermines his argument too.) I don't really know how the history/law worked, but at least the way he claims, "they made explicit exceptions to the copyright monopoly for the benefit of public access to culture and knowledge." I guess in America a special exce…

And just to be clear, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with the idea that libraries serve a special purpose that should be enshrined in law, and that this then implies something about file sharing. I just don't think it's a position one necessarily must have, so the premise of the article is wrong because of that.

Re: You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing

#69
post #17

Yes, it is different. It differs in efficiency. Not an irrelevant difference. A public library is funded and maintained by the same community that uses it. The manual processes required to consume the material are a natural check in the process and the result is a mild shift in equilibrium. Communities benefit and libraries are legitimate customers, so publishers are at least still getting paid. File sharing's equili…

Do you think that peer to peer filesharing communities are not also funded and maintained by the community that uses it? I contend that this is exactly the case. There must also be an original legitimate customer of the work being shared, so the publisher is still getting paid. The difference does only lie in efficiency. In a world of ever-increasing efficiency, why do we shackle libraries to 20th Century levels of s…

[deleted]

Re: You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing

#70
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can scan the book and distribute digital copies of it for free. The only investment is time required to scan the books.

You can also steal a book from the library under your jacket, and then you don't have to return it. It doesn't mean it's legal or right.

I was just countering his point on copying physical books: "Can't do that with the physical book. Not for free anyway."

Stealing a book doesn't amount to copying the book and returning it.

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