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TSA Master Keys

schneier.com

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Re: TSA Master Keys

#41

Post by dragonwriter »

kabdib wrote: post #38
tptacek wrote: post #27

Was it ever possible to have a secure lock held by tens of thousands of people with a secure master key, even if the authentic master keys were never revealed?

This. One thing that kills escrow systems dead is the complacent spread of authority. You start with critical keys that are closely held. Over time other parties express the need for access ("Okay, if you promise to be good"). Nothing bad happens (that anyone can prove...) so over time more entities are brought into the circle of trust. Eventually the dog-catcher has access to your stuff. There's no way these keys ha…

Really, it doesn't matter if they've broadly leaked or not -- from very early on in the "TSA must have your keys" period, theft by TSA agents from luggage was a noteworthy problem. The spread of authority may be a problem, but when the original authority isn't trustworthy in the first place, problems start long before any spread.

Re: TSA Master Keys

#42

Post by pfooti »

coldpie wrote: post #22
harkyns_castle wrote: post #2

Seems to still be a lot being done in the name of security theater in the US, and just wasting dollars on the TSA, for what appears to be very little effect. Who's really profiting there? Is it just for the employment of people that otherwise wouldn't have a job? Or are the majority of citizens there really made to feel more secure by having them? I'd have to say some defense contractor is getting a bit fatter off th…

> Seems like a ridiculous waste of money. The people paying for it (US citizens and those who travel into or through the US) would surely see it as a waste. But the people profiting don't, and the people profiting are the same people who make the laws mandating them. I opt out of the naked scanners every time I fly. Just tell the TSA clown trying to herd you into the naked scanner the magic phrase "I'm opting out." A…

I also opt out every time. At one point the FSM came to me in a dream and told me that I shalt not go through a pornoscanner. And who am I to doubt the word of noodle?

Re: TSA Master Keys

#43

Post by mseebach »

rogeryu wrote: post #23

So luggage handlers can open my suitcase, put in some drugs, and at the other end I can get caught for having drugs in my luggage? They should setup a service where you checkin your luggage, they check it for drugs or illegal stuff, they seal it, and at arrival you get your suitcase with the guarantee that it had no drugs at checkin.

I think Bruce Schneier has a term for coming up with theoretical threats and then "fixing" that threat through an elaborate system.

Re: TSA Master Keys

#44

Post by grandalf »

Spooky23 wrote: post #16
harkyns_castle wrote: post #2

Seems to still be a lot being done in the name of security theater in the US, and just wasting dollars on the TSA, for what appears to be very little effect. Who's really profiting there? Is it just for the employment of people that otherwise wouldn't have a job? Or are the majority of citizens there really made to feel more secure by having them? I'd have to say some defense contractor is getting a bit fatter off th…

The upshot of TSA is that because it's a single government organization, it's easy to identify the costs and quality of operations. Pre-TSA, we were wasting the same or more amount of money on private contractors of dubious quality. But you didn't really know how much, as the cost was spread across thousands of airline/airport authorities/municipal government combinations.

Are you sure it was the same amount of money? Before the TSA, airport security agents were very minimally trained and there were no expensive body scanner machines.

I would not be surprised if the TSA version of airport security cost 10x the previous version.

Re: TSA Master Keys

#45

Post by acdha »

flavor8 wrote: post #11
tempodox wrote: post #6

Not only is this another impressive demonstration of incompetence, but by disseminating the idea that people's luggage could be “secure” and “backdoored” at the same time, they're actually destroying what security has existed before. They should pivot to be the “Transport Endangerment Agency”.

Most luggage isn't really secure in the first place. It takes less time to open up a suitcase with a good knife than it does to unzip many suitcases. The idea that a little padlock will protect your suitcase from thieves is laughable. Like physical mail, the system is based on trust, and trying to patch security onto it is difficult.

A knife leaves obvious traces. Using a key both avoids making it immediately obvious and adds ambiguity – since most bag theft happens as part of organized rings inside airports, that's significant because it allows the airlines to avoid paying compensation by requiring hard proof that something expensive was actually in the bag when it entered the system and missing before you left.

Re: TSA Master Keys

#46

Post by dragonwriter »

Spooky23 wrote: post #16
harkyns_castle wrote: post #2

Seems to still be a lot being done in the name of security theater in the US, and just wasting dollars on the TSA, for what appears to be very little effect. Who's really profiting there? Is it just for the employment of people that otherwise wouldn't have a job? Or are the majority of citizens there really made to feel more secure by having them? I'd have to say some defense contractor is getting a bit fatter off th…

The upshot of TSA is that because it's a single government organization, it's easy to identify the costs and quality of operations. Pre-TSA, we were wasting the same or more amount of money on private contractors of dubious quality. But you didn't really know how much, as the cost was spread across thousands of airline/airport authorities/municipal government combinations.

I would be very surprised if the federalized version wasn't much more expensive -- for one thing, because its centralized its a bigger and more profitable target for vendor lobbying for requirements that necessitate the purchase of particular goods and services (whole body scanners, etc.)

Re: TSA Master Keys

#47

Post by harkyns_castle »

grandalf wrote: post #44
Spooky23 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The upshot of TSA is that because it's a single government organization, it's easy to identify the costs and quality of operations. Pre-TSA, we were wasting the same or more amount of money on private contractors of dubious quality. But you didn't really know how much, as the cost was spread across thousands of airline/airport authorities/municipal government combinations.

Are you sure it was the same amount of money? Before the TSA, airport security agents were very minimally trained and there were no expensive body scanner machines. I would not be surprised if the TSA version of airport security cost 10x the previous version.

A good point. It seems to me an increase in people annoying you throughout the flying process is only going to have increased costs, coupled with expensive hardware and presumably billions in software too.

Speaking for Tasmania, there's a desolate looking guy on the Hobart bomb scanner device every time that flags me over. His face says it all, "I know this is a bullshit job, just submit and it will be over with quickly, I collect a paycheck, you feel bad for a little while."

Re: TSA Master Keys

#48

Post by 3pt14159 »

rogeryu wrote: post #23

So luggage handlers can open my suitcase, put in some drugs, and at the other end I can get caught for having drugs in my luggage? They should setup a service where you checkin your luggage, they check it for drugs or illegal stuff, they seal it, and at arrival you get your suitcase with the guarantee that it had no drugs at checkin.

The counter measure to this is loudly speaking out, not other systems. When enough people speak out a system gets a reputation. It is how we understand a country as being corrupt or hostile. If they want to frame you, it is really, really easy. The problem they have is they can only frame a couple dozen people before they lose a huge amount of trust.

Re: TSA Master Keys

#49

Post by donkeyd »

rogeryu wrote: post #23

So luggage handlers can open my suitcase, put in some drugs, and at the other end I can get caught for having drugs in my luggage? They should setup a service where you checkin your luggage, they check it for drugs or illegal stuff, they seal it, and at arrival you get your suitcase with the guarantee that it had no drugs at checkin.

Them taking out the drugs at arrival would be a better plan I think.
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