No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking • Hacker News Board

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#91

Post by thedufer » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 5:19 PM UTC

Devthrowaway80 wrote: post #46

thedufer wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Participation in AA is associated with substantially increased rates of continuous abstinence at the 1, 3 and 5 year marks after quitting It's been shown, as much as is possible, that that's all selection bias. People rarely fall off the wagon and then keep going to meetings. AA's rules around anonymity and consent make it conveniently impossible to run good studies, so they are able to (rightly, for the most part)…

Your "quote" is not what I wrote, I include other support groups in my statement. I have no interest in arguing with obvious axe-grinding. > People rarely fall off the wagon and then keep going to meetings. I have a significant number of acquaintances who did exactly that, myself included, but I am not going to make the claim that my personal experience means anything statistically. > It's been shown, as much as is p…

I have no axe to grind, other than a disdain for supporting emotional ties with poor statistics. I've never brushed with AA or alcoholism in any capacity. That said:

In Project MATCH [1] we learn that "twelve-step" (AA), cognitive behavioral therapy, and motivational enhancement therapy all have very similar results across a large number of measures.

We also find that CBT performs equivalently to "brief opportunistic intervention" (which goes under a variety of names, but takes a single 5-minute meeting), which is the minimum amount of treatment that we're ethically allowed to give alcoholics.

So it may work better than nothing (can't really study that), but there are much lower-touch methods that give equivalent results.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MATCH

[2] http://robinsteed.pbworks.com/w/file/fetch/52176344/Treatmen..., study by "Chick et al. (1988)"

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#92

Post by DanBC » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 5:36 PM UTC

blazespin wrote: post #49

mdip wrote: post #42

I don't know how effective Alcoholics Anonymous really is (not saying one way or the other), but having the accountability placed on you by friends is a helpful thing in many other tough situations in life. You can see it underlying many useful bits of advice ("Have a cofounder" always comes to mind -- someone to motivate you when you're unable to do so yourself, perhaps?) Addiction is no joke and anything that can p…

Alcoholism isn't so much about addiction as it is about binge drinking. Lots of people have a couple of drinks everyday and function quite well. It's the four manhattans in quick succession where things go awry.

A couple of drinks could be harmful drinking, but it is nowhere near alcoholism.

To get a medically supervised withdrawal in England you need to be drinking 40 units a day - that's a litre of 40% spirits every day. (That number drops if you have severe and enduring mental illness, or are female).

Binge drinking - having most of the week alcohol free and ten having a bunch of drinks over a few days is associated with increased risk of sexual violence; unplanned pregnancy; STDs; accidental injury; etc, and the the alcohol harms on top. But uaving those drink free days is somewhat protective.

Drinking a couple of drinks everyday makes the alcohol harms much more likely, and reduces the other risks. (It depends how big those drinks are.)

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#93

Post by mikestew » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 5:41 PM UTC

FilterSweep wrote: post #81

mikestew wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but you are also a weak human being for having succumbed to such disease in the first place. That's pretty much the antithesis of the AA philosophy, as well as the exact opposite of the "alcoholism is a disease" thinking. IOW, no one thinks you got cancer because you're a "weak human being". If there's any "ego death" involved, it's that you're not going to solve this in your own. Source: attended my share of AA meet…

>Source: anecdotal data trashing those who you don't agree with isn't a fair justification to downvote. My point is proven in the _first_ and _third_ steps of the program, In the admission that you have a problem, and that you are helpless to solve the problem yourself, respectively. [0][1] What about your point? Your personal opinion of it? It is the admission that you are _helpless_ to your disease, and it is that…

Man, were you not so pissy over imaginary internet points I might engage and show where you might have misinterpreted. However, I get the impression that engagement isn't what you're looking for, just agreement or silence. Regardless, I wish you well with your recovery, or whatever you wish to call it.

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#94

Post by nugga » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

siliconc0w wrote: post #37

On a similar topic - AA actually isn't that effective: http://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/the_pseudo_science_of_alcoho... I haven't read the book the above article is covering but it seems Dodes argues psychotherapy is a better alternative as 'addiction' is usually just a manifestation of self-destructive/self medication behavior ultimately due to untreated psychological issues. In this OP's case this is looks like it w…

Interestingly, one of the founders of AA thought that LSD could be a tremendous help for curing alcoholism:

Wilson hoped LSD would help those addicted to alcohol. He realized that A.A. simply did not work for every motivated alcoholic. According to Wilson, “It is a generally acknowledged fact in spiritual development that ego reduction makes the influx of God’s grace possible. If, therefore, under LSD we can have a temporary reduction, so that we can better see what we are and where we are going–well, that might be of some help.”

http://mywordlikefire.com/2012/10/28/lsd-researcher-and-a-a-... http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/aug/23/lsd-help-alco... http://www.maps.org/research-archive/w3pb/2005/2005_Dyck_228... http://www.bbc.com/news/health-17297714

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#95

Post by speeder » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 7:23 PM UTC

brador wrote: post #90

speeder wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you said makes no sense. I am struggling to barely work, I keep getting repeteadly fired even when my performance is good (because my behaviour is too strange in the office), I lost a girlfriend due to ADHD (I have to constantly fidget or move, this girlfriend tought I was anxious and didn't wanted to pay attention to her when I was fidgeting when she was talking to me). Also caffeine don't induce ADHD (the medi…

Caffeine doesn't induce ADHD in the general population. Individual cases are possible, or more commonly, ADHD type behaviours caused by external stimuli. Actual genetic ADHD is extremely rare and severely debilitating when it does occur.

If know this, why you wrote your post as if it was possible to cause ADHD with caffeine? And that somehow I want to have this horrible condition?

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#96

Post by brador » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 7:35 PM UTC

speeder wrote: post #95

brador wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caffeine doesn't induce ADHD in the general population. Individual cases are possible, or more commonly, ADHD type behaviours caused by external stimuli. Actual genetic ADHD is extremely rare and severely debilitating when it does occur.

If know this, why you wrote your post as if it was possible to cause ADHD with caffeine? And that somehow I want to have this horrible condition?

It is possible to cause ADHD symptoms with caffeine. And I didn't say you want to have any condition. I am implying you do not understand the possible causes of it and have taken the easy option to bandaid.

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#97

Post by Devthrowaway80 » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 1:24 AM UTC

thedufer wrote: post #91

Devthrowaway80 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your "quote" is not what I wrote, I include other support groups in my statement. I have no interest in arguing with obvious axe-grinding. > People rarely fall off the wagon and then keep going to meetings. I have a significant number of acquaintances who did exactly that, myself included, but I am not going to make the claim that my personal experience means anything statistically. > It's been shown, as much as is p…

I have no axe to grind, other than a disdain for supporting emotional ties with poor statistics. I've never brushed with AA or alcoholism in any capacity. That said: In Project MATCH [1] we learn that "twelve-step" (AA), cognitive behavioral therapy, and motivational enhancement therapy all have very similar results across a large number of measures. We also find that CBT performs equivalently to "brief opportunistic…

So which is it - is it a treatment with no benefits other than that which is attributable to selection bias, as you first claimed, or is it a high-touch treatment that performs similarly to CBT or other forms of therapy? You're moving the goalposts. The latter statement is perfectly valid, as AA is really just CBT dressed up with additional social support and a charitable aspect.

Why the focus on high-touch/low-touch? It doesn't cost anyone anything except for those who attend, and even those who do aren't obligated to spend anything. It does take up some time, but it is time that I enjoy spending.

I have undergone both CBT and yes, have attended AA. The former did not do much for me, the latter did. AA as practiced in my area is strongly remniscent of CBT, only with additional social support, which is helpful for recovering alcoholics who have likely either alienated most people or who have built social networks focused around substance abuse.

If you were to say that addiction is complicated and the right course of treatment is difficult to determine and efficacy is hard to measure, I certainly would agree.

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#98

Post by madaxe_again » Sun, Sep 06, 2015, 7:50 AM UTC

dylanz wrote: post #86

madaxe_again wrote: post #65

Ah, this rang so many bells. My ex of ten years ago drank huge amounts and was in utter denial about there even being a possibility of a problem. I used to have to go out and find her, usually asleep in an alley, or passed out in a bar's toilets - the worst occasion was when she threw a brick at me, as I had come to pry her away from a bar, and the recoil sent her tumbling into the Thames, in December - fished her ou…

Man, what a chapter of your life. I've had something similar, and it's amazing to what extreme trials and tribulations you'll go through with someone during a relationship. I like to think we learn a lot from these experiences, so maybe the three legged cats are there for a reason.

It was heartbreaking - both because she betrayed me, but moreso because I realised that I was no small part of what was making her worse - she was dashing herself to pieces between the guilt she felt over her trespasses and the righteous indignation she felt at me trying to help her...

I've not spoken with her in a decade, I hope she's at least found a way of living with her demons - but as I said, drinking is a huge part of the legal professional culture, so as long as she's inured in that world, I don't know what hope there is.

Either way, it's her life. I guess the main thing I learned is that kindness can kill, be careful how you apply it.

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#99

Post by jheriko » Mon, Sep 07, 2015, 8:19 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #41

op00to wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't a man that wrote the article?

Kera Yonker. Brian Rea did the illustration. I will admit, though, I assumed it was a woman just from the male romantic interest, which is my bad.

i actually assumed it was a gay man until later for some reason.

no idea why... these kinds of first impressions are always hit and miss. it goes to show what terrible judges of character we all are. :)

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#100

Post by thedufer » Tue, Sep 08, 2015, 1:17 PM UTC

Devthrowaway80 wrote: post #97

thedufer wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no axe to grind, other than a disdain for supporting emotional ties with poor statistics. I've never brushed with AA or alcoholism in any capacity. That said: In Project MATCH [1] we learn that "twelve-step" (AA), cognitive behavioral therapy, and motivational enhancement therapy all have very similar results across a large number of measures. We also find that CBT performs equivalently to "brief opportunistic…

So which is it - is it a treatment with no benefits other than that which is attributable to selection bias, as you first claimed, or is it a high-touch treatment that performs similarly to CBT or other forms of therapy? You're moving the goalposts. The latter statement is perfectly valid, as AA is really just CBT dressed up with additional social support and a charitable aspect. Why the focus on high-touch/low-touch…

> So which is it - is it a treatment with no benefits other than that which is attributable to selection bias, as you first claimed, or is it a high-touch treatment that performs similarly to CBT or other forms of therapy?

It is a high-touch treatment that performs as well as a 5 minute intervention, despite constant claims that it is better. In the post I originally replied to, you implied that you were comparing it to other methods rather than nothing, although it wasn't terribly clear.

> It doesn't cost anyone anything except for those who attend

The oft-claimed improvement of AA over other methods messes up our views on addiction, as well as the justice system for addicts. Our refusal to use drugs to fight addiction even though the science is quite clear stems from full-abstinence organizations, largely led by AA.