Machines replace migrants as Maine blueberry harvest blooms • Hacker News Board

Re: Machines replace migrants as Maine blueberry harvest blooms

#41

Post by eru » Mon, Sep 07, 2015, 10:51 AM UTC

generic_user wrote: post #17

3Pi wrote: post #12

Despite the impact it has on the availability of unskilled manual labour jobs, I think it's great that machines are finally turning to harvesting - having worked on a similar project to do with grapes (specifically, pruning), it's not always the easiest of things. It does highlight to me that we are getting closer to the point of needing to rethink labour distribution, because the non-technical jobs are the easiest t…

Hasn't that been the case for all of human history? Mass Migration has been a thing for thousands of years. Populations grow and shrink to meet needs of the workforce. The United States was settled by mass immigration mostly manual laborers who had 8 or 9 children per family. Now field labour is a rarity. and family size is 2 to 3 children. The minuet you think Central planning can override natural market forces you…

> The minuet you think Central planning can override natural market forces you run into much bigger problems that usually end in catastrophe for the people you were trying to 'help'.

Corporations are central planning. Just on a smaller scale. (Though, companies like the old IBM were bigger then some small countries.)

Re: Machines replace migrants as Maine blueberry harvest blooms

#42

Post by eru » Mon, Sep 07, 2015, 10:52 AM UTC

generic_user wrote: post #14

How anyone can lament the disappearance of back breaking unskilled field work is beyond me. Mechanisation and destruction of repetitive unskilled work is the driving force for the improvement of living standards and the advancement of civilization since the beginning of recorded history. The invention of agrarian civilization itself displaced hunter-gatherer tribes, should we lament the disappearance of nomads also?…

Actually, the invention of agriculture was a great tragedy in terms of back breaking unskilled field work. Agriculture did feed more people, but the survivors were worse off.

We are only now recovering from agriculture.

Re: Machines replace migrants as Maine blueberry harvest blooms

#43

Post by eru » Mon, Sep 07, 2015, 11:00 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #28

generic_user wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I share your concern for the people effected but the notion that these people have little to offer and can not, or will not move up the labor chain does far more harm then good. Most westerners great grand parents were either farm laborers or did some form of back breaking manual labour. The literacy rate was horrible and so forth. I doubt very much these farm workers could not transition into some from of service jo…

While it's true immigrants in the 19 and early 20th centuries were uneducated, they had a generation or two available to catch up. In today's day and age, they have a few years to adjust to this new reality. It's true that a good many could transition to other higher level jobs, but at that cost of labor, jobs will go to the domestic labor force. I.e. If I have a job where the going rate is 25/hr, why would I go thru…

And that's why we need easier immigration with less strings attached.

Re: Machines replace migrants as Maine blueberry harvest blooms

#44

Post by afarrell » Mon, Sep 07, 2015, 12:03 PM UTC

blazespin wrote: post #25

afarrell wrote: post #11

I wonder if there is some sort of more incremental way to introduce basic minimum income that won't get legislative pushback and will scale with automation.

This is already happening in the form of welfare, food stamps, tax credits, etc. lots of different programs.

The whole point of BMI is to eliminate those programs and the perverse incentives that come with them (ex: people on CA-TANF are not allowed to have more than $2500 in savings or something.) and replace it with just cutting a cheque.

Re: Machines replace migrants as Maine blueberry harvest blooms

#45

Post by ingenieros » Mon, Sep 07, 2015, 12:08 PM UTC

blazespin wrote: post #23

brc wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My local McDonalds is experimenting with touch screen menus. I guess automated kitchens won't be far behind. It will be a shame when such an entry level job is no longer available to teenagers to learn about doing a job and working in a team.

No, it won't. The sooner we shift from labor to education as our source of social dignity the better. Let's pay people to go to school rather than to flip burgers.

Right, because we all know that Silicon Valley and STEM fields do such a good job hiring the type of minorities who typically work in the fields: "many of today’s rakers are of Latin American or Caribbean origin. Others are Native American or aboriginal people of Canada" http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/study-... *Half of all non-Hispanic Asian STEM degree holders go into a STEM job. But the likelihood is lower — 30 percent — among Hispanics and non-Hispanic Black and American Indian and Alaska Native workers

Re: Machines replace migrants as Maine blueberry harvest blooms

#46

Post by brc » Mon, Sep 07, 2015, 2:10 PM UTC

ecoponderosa wrote: post #32

generic_user wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its ridiculous that people think the destruction of menial labour will be destructive given all the evidence to the contrary. Jobs have been render obsolete for centuries and the outcome has been an increase in education and skilled labour to do more rewarding jobs.

An exception is small scale local artisanal natural/organic market gardens and family farms that rely on skilled hand labor almost exclusively. You will never and should never consider replacing that with automation and machines. The quality products made available to the public from these operations benefit from the extra attention to detail and experience gained from a lifetime spent in this type of agriculture, so…

Skilled artisanal work is by definition not low paid menial work.

There's nothing wrong with people doing low paid work. Those of us who can't stand it impose our values on others. I worked a lot of manual labor while studying. I worked on mowing crews who spend their lives mowing the same pieces of grass over and over. You'd think they hate it but they were happy to work a low stress, secure job and just do their hobbies in their off time, whether coaching kids or building model railways. Of course that's not everyone but it's wrong to pretend we can walk in everyone's shoes.

Re: Machines replace migrants as Maine blueberry harvest blooms

#47

Post by brc » Mon, Sep 07, 2015, 2:14 PM UTC

blazespin wrote: post #23

brc wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My local McDonalds is experimenting with touch screen menus. I guess automated kitchens won't be far behind. It will be a shame when such an entry level job is no longer available to teenagers to learn about doing a job and working in a team.

No, it won't. The sooner we shift from labor to education as our source of social dignity the better. Let's pay people to go to school rather than to flip burgers.

I learnt just as much working low paid jobs while studying as I did in the study. Working with people you don't like, being punctual and responsible, accepting criticism and even nearly getting fired - all good lessons. Paying people to learn is a recipe for misallocation of resources.

Re: Machines replace migrants as Maine blueberry harvest blooms

#48

Post by mc32 » Mon, Sep 07, 2015, 3:30 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #43

mc32 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's true immigrants in the 19 and early 20th centuries were uneducated, they had a generation or two available to catch up. In today's day and age, they have a few years to adjust to this new reality. It's true that a good many could transition to other higher level jobs, but at that cost of labor, jobs will go to the domestic labor force. I.e. If I have a job where the going rate is 25/hr, why would I go thru…

And that's why we need easier immigration with less strings attached.

On the other hand if software is eating the world, I'm sure constituents will want to ensure their system protects their access to jobs over people who are trying to hop into the less worse off system.

So, for example, if Brazil is doing particularly well, I'm sure the citizens will want to fend off workers from places where jobs have eroded more quickly.

Re: Machines replace migrants as Maine blueberry harvest blooms

#49

Post by eli_gottlieb » Mon, Sep 07, 2015, 6:09 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #41

generic_user wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't that been the case for all of human history? Mass Migration has been a thing for thousands of years. Populations grow and shrink to meet needs of the workforce. The United States was settled by mass immigration mostly manual laborers who had 8 or 9 children per family. Now field labour is a rarity. and family size is 2 to 3 children. The minuet you think Central planning can override natural market forces you…

> The minuet you think Central planning can override natural market forces you run into much bigger problems that usually end in catastrophe for the people you were trying to 'help'. Corporations are central planning. Just on a smaller scale. (Though, companies like the old IBM were bigger then some small countries.)

Yeah, but they used to be forms of planning organizations that couldn't drag all of society with them when they fucked up.

Re: Machines replace migrants as Maine blueberry harvest blooms

#50

Post by xraystyle » Mon, Sep 07, 2015, 6:21 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #41

generic_user wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't that been the case for all of human history? Mass Migration has been a thing for thousands of years. Populations grow and shrink to meet needs of the workforce. The United States was settled by mass immigration mostly manual laborers who had 8 or 9 children per family. Now field labour is a rarity. and family size is 2 to 3 children. The minuet you think Central planning can override natural market forces you…

> The minuet you think Central planning can override natural market forces you run into much bigger problems that usually end in catastrophe for the people you were trying to 'help'. Corporations are central planning. Just on a smaller scale. (Though, companies like the old IBM were bigger then some small countries.)

> Corporations are central planning. Just on a smaller scale.

No, they're not. Corporations plan their production and allocate their resources based on market information within their industry in an attempt to capitalize on the market signals they observe.

Central planning is a process by which a central government attempts to control and direct the output of a nation's economy by deciding what to produce and when, ignoring market signals.

These are vastly different concepts.